PS Audio FR30 speakers

[hardisj]

good if it is really the fact

This statement implies I made up the conversation. Or did you mean the part about them sending it to the NWAA?

 

[DWI]

Hi-Fi magazines are now purely advertisements, subjective comments, no matter who makes them mean very little.
Send the speakers to Amir for measurement.
Keith

Looking at the review index, the chances of anyone sending Amir a $28,000 speaker are about zero. I read somewhere he doesn't even have commercial liability insurance. Most of the top page seem to come from Harman or Genelec. Why is that? And what doesn't he like about the Harbeth M30? They've been selling like hot cakes for 25 years, I enjoyed two pairs of Harbeth for about 6 years, I'd have them again, no problem

 

[CtheArgie]

Easy, because most >$25k speakers are sold on illusions and would definitely have much to lose with objective data.

 

[YSC]

This statement implies I made up the conversation. Or did you mean the part about them sending it to the NWAA?

neither, my english word choice error, I mean if that's the case it's great that they did send for some measurement for a full set of data, and not just claiming that some "third party plots showing bad peaks and nulls is design choice which makes off axis perfect that something measuring good, this is high end"

 

[DWI]

Let's talk about meaning. Are you saying 1) that most subscribers never look at the magazine's respective Web presence; or 2) most subscribers who are 'like you' don't look at the Web presence (presumably because since they are 'like you' and since you don't, they must not)?

How would you even know whether the first interpretation (or claim) is the case? The second is at best a self-referential inference, possibly a tautology.

My guess (and it is only a guess) is that even if these magazine's subscribers aren't looking at their respective Web sites, the number of people who do look at it are greater than the number of people who subscribe, and therefore the comparison among the three sites is a meaningful indicator of relative influence.

It's obviously (1) because, for example, the latest speaker review on the website is a Perlisten dated 5 May, which was included the April issue that was sent to subscribers in the first week of March. So if the magazine lands in your inbox or on your doormat (I don't get the paper version), I can't imagine why anyone would want to got to the website to read the same review 2 months later.

Moreover, the magazine comes through an app (pocketmags in my case), so if I would ever want to read a back issue, which I don't, I would go to the app. Plus not all the magazine content is on the website anyway.

By far the bigger factor is likely to be the fact that on this forum, many members visit the same page dozens of times, looking and discussing the same review endlessly, whereas if someone searches Perlisten and finds the hifinews.com review, I doubt many people would red the page more than once.

So the data for page hits does not say anything useful about how wide the readership is, but members and paid subscribers would. Magazines won't tell you that and I doubt Amir will either.

Even then, that doesn't tell you how much influence you have. I comment on threads about things I have an interest in, this one as I've owned and enjoyed several PS Audio products and I hope this speaker is a big success.

Measurements aren't new, they just went out of fashion for about 30 years because most hifi is now very well made. They serve a purpose but they will never be the main factor. I subscribed to an audio magazine and just read this afternoon this comment by an audio manufacturer explaining the flat frequency response doesn't necessarily make a great loudspeaker. It's just an example of why measurements don't tell you everything, and designing to meet specifications alone is not always the answer. You might be surprised which company wrote this.

 

[amirm]

. I read somewhere he doesn't even have commercial liability insurance.

I absolutely do. I have a general liability insurance for ASR with $150,000 coverage limit. I pay thousands of dollars per year in insurance for ASR. So don't spread garbage rumors like this.

 

[Jon AA]

It sounds like Greg Timbers. Have you not read some of the reviews of various JBL horn speakers where there is much discussion about how they are sometimes more pleasing to listen to than their on-axis response might suggest? It's not something nobody here is aware can happen. I'm not sure what that comment has to do with this speaker though, as those speakers generally have higher than normal sensitivity and very well controlled directivity.

 

[amirm]

Most of the top page seem to come from Harman or Genelec. Why is that?

Because they have a reputation for following the best science in sound reproduction so members buy them and send them to me for testing. Any other wise remark that you have not thought through?

 

[retro]

It sounds like Greg Timbers.

What/who..? Maybe I'm a bit slow..

 

[LarryRS]

DWI wrote:

Measurements aren't new, they just went out of fashion for about 30 years because most hifi is now very well made. They serve a purpose but they will never be the main factor. I subscribed to an audio magazine and just read this afternoon this comment by an audio manufacturer explaining the flat frequency response doesn't necessarily make a great loudspeaker. It's just an example of why measurements don't tell you everything, and designing to meet specifications alone is not always the answer. You might be surprised which company wrote this.

Both of these hit the nail on the head. Those of you familiar with Consumer Reports and their reviews of loudspeakers may wonder why a tinge of familiarity has been tugging at you. You may remember reading the CR speaker test articles back in the days when it was very convenient to listen to speakers locally. Their rankings based on their "accuracy" scores caused lots of head scratching among myself and my friends who were into audio. The most pleasing aspects of many of their "accurate" speakers were the fancy latticework grilles; certainly not how they reproduced music.

 

[AwesomeSauce2015]

@retro
Greg Timbers is an Ex-JBL Engineer, responsible for the Everest, Studio 5XX series, and many more lines of speakers from JBL.
https://positive-feedback.com/interviews/greg-timbers-jbl/

Generally focused more on dynamics in his designs than wide off-axis dispersion... Hence the horns and big woofers. Instead of the microscopic midranges and tweeters Revel uses.

In the interview linked, he mentions that dynamics, to him, are essential to achieve a lifelike reproduction of sound.

Sincerely,
A JBL Horn fanboy

 

[amirm]

Both of these hit the nail on the head. Those of you familiar with Consumer Reports and their reviews of loudspeakers may wonder why a tinge of familiarity has been tugging at you. You may remember reading the CR speaker test articles back in the days when it was very convenient to listen to speakers locally. Their rankings based on their "accuracy" scores caused lots of head scratching among myself and my friends who were into audio. The most pleasing aspects of many of their "accurate" speakers were the fancy latticework grilles; certainly not how they reproduced music.

Harman research conclusively showed that CR's speaker evaluation methodology relying on Sound Power was faulty. I am surprised people still don't know about this. See AES paper, A Multiple Regression Model For Predicting Loudspeaker Preference Using Objective Measurements: Part I-Listening Test Results, Sean E. Olive, AES Fellow

Consumer Reports disbanded the group and reporting on speakers post this research.

This is why any old measurement won't do. It has to comply with latest research which means CEA-2034 measurements we post. When done this way, there is absolutely predictive power.

 

[CtheArgie]

“If you ignore the literature, you’ll discover new things!”

 

[amirm]

Looking at the review index, the chances of anyone sending Amir a $28,000 speaker are about zero.

I don't know where you get that from. The top listing in there is Revel F328Be which lists for $8,000 each. A pair of these will be $16,000. So clearly pricey speakers that were purchased new and sent me to for testing en route to the member.

While handling the logistics is non-trivial, I have a lift that is capable of 400 pounds. So I could get it done.

 

[retro]

@retro
Greg Timbers is an Ex-JBL Engineer, responsible for the Everest, Studio 5XX series, and many more lines of speakers from JBL.
https://positive-feedback.com/interviews/greg-timbers-jbl/

Generally focused more on dynamics in his designs than wide off-axis dispersion... Hence the horns and big woofers. Instead of the microscopic midranges and tweeters Revel uses.

In the interview linked, he mentions that dynamics, to him, are essential to achieve a lifelike reproduction of sound.

Sincerely,
A JBL Horn fanboy

Thx. I know very well who GT is. Owned several of his speakers..
My "What/who" meant that I didn't understand how (or why) he got mentioned in the thread. Guess I missed some quote somewhere..

 

[Chris Brunhaver]

Easy, because most >$25k speakers are sold on illusions and would definitely have much to lose with objective data.

Well, I'll play armchair psychologist here and say that I've seen a lot of mock outrage or general animous towards very expensive things. I understand the championing of "best value" and "bang for buck" components and Amir have done an awesome job with that here with a variety of products (starting with the chinese DACs). Especially for those entering to hobby, it's a great resource.

But why the hate about something that you will likely never be in the market for or even try to experience? I think that it is at least in part, sour grapes, as the Aesop fable goes. Because they are out of reach, they must be sour.

I have been reading about the phenomenon of "hate watching". Why do people repeatedly watch something they dislike so they can belittle and ridicule it? One thought is that they are channeling and releasing negativity from other parts of life (bad mood, insecurities, other things).

That being said, there are some "sham" audiophile products that give other more legitimate attempts at the high-end designs and you'll see some straw man arguments about these in more legitimate discussions about other stuff.

It's also not all about certain kinds of performance for everyone. There is a level of functional art in products and reasons why someone might lust after porche or ferrari instead of a tesla or corvette that might be better in some performance metrics. Even though I will never own any of those (and drive an inexpensive SUV), I enjoy the fact that they exists and seeing what new supercar someone comes out with. The same thing goes for a D'Agostino amplifier for me.

I understand that you're passionate about this hobby and promoting the things that you believe in and trying to root out what's better than this or that but it seems like you choose to spend a lot of time on the PS user forum and here "hate watching" and I don't really get it.

 

[Chris Brunhaver]

Its that data which supposedly already exists and which we should see. In any event, I find it hard to believe that no measurements exist which could be shared.

Again, they are RELEASING a $30k speaker and AFTER setting up proper measures. This is not conspiracy.

Its as if a drug company starts selling a new drug and then initiates the clinical trials. Or tells you to trust them because they won’t share the trial data.

I know audio is not drugs, but you still expect some rational product development.

By the way, if PS formally commits to providing the speaker, I’ll pitch in some $$.

Just to be clear, of course, I have measurements we used to develop the speaker with but they are not perfect and so I'll be using lab measurements for publishing.

- we were able to lift the speaker off the ground about 15' (on a turntable rig that can move in a 360 unobstructed) and get gated quasi anechoic measurements to about 200 Hz and then splice in ground plane measurements for the bass.
- there is actually a great tutorial about this on the forum here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ents-spinoramas-with-rew-and-vituixcad.21860/
- I actually use Vituixcad and find it to be the best tool I've used for this purpose (I used to use LSPcad, which is similar but not as feature rich).
- because the speaker is so heavy, the turntable rig and some of the surrounding apparatus cause some reflections in the data, so it's not pristine
- There is less resolution in the lower midrange with this approach, as Erin has more eloquently described in his videos about his previous measurement rig and with the Klippel folks.
- There were some small performance differences between our pre-production sample drivers and mass-produced units (because of QC work and that making hundreds of units is different than making a few) and I want the measurements to reflect what has actually shipped to customers as much as possible.

NWAA labs have to damage one of the enclosures (to screw/bolt it into their test rig) and I needed a sacrificial cabinet for this and we had sent one set off to an international distributor and were short on spares. We ended up using the pilot production units that I was going to measure at the Montreal Audiofest trade show. I'll have them sent out to the lab soon and plan to get ahead of this more on future units (this is a new effort for the company).

This is all a little inside baseball but I just want to be transparent about our intentions to the community. There is no conspiracy, we're just a small business with primarily me working on this and I'm doing my best to juggle things.

 

[Killingbeans]

Well, I'll play armchair psychologist here and say that I've seen a lot of mock outrage or general animous towards very expensive things.

He did say "most >$25k speakers". I don't think he would feel the same way about a set of Genelec 8351B + W371A or a pair of Kii Three BXT.

I do agree that doing crusades on luxury products for no other reason than the price doesn't produce anything useful for anybody. Thankfully most people in here seem to focus on exposing the designs that are sold on the basis of unsubstantiated claims. As long as expensive products with "flavours" are being honestly marketed as such, you won't see many complaints.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Well, I'll play armchair psychologist here and say that I've seen a lot of mock outrage or general animous towards very expensive things. I understand the championing of "best value" and "bang for buck" components and Amir have done an awesome job with that here with a variety of products (starting with the chinese DACs). Especially for those entering to hobby, it's a great resource.

But why the hate about something that you will likely never be in the market for or even try to experience? I think that it is at least in part, sour grapes, as the Aesop fable goes. Because they are out of reach, they must be sour.

I have been reading about the phenomenon of "hate watching". Why do people repeatedly watch something they dislike so they can belittle and ridicule it? One thought is that they are channeling and releasing negativity from other parts of life (bad mood, insecurities, other things).

That being said, there are some "sham" audiophile products that give other more legitimate attempts at the high-end designs and you'll see some straw man arguments about these in more legitimate discussions about other stuff.

It's also not all about certain kinds of performance for everyone. There is a level of functional art in products and reasons why someone might lust after porche or ferrari instead of a tesla or corvette that might be better in some performance metrics. Even though I will never own any of those (and drive an inexpensive SUV), I enjoy the fact that they exists and seeing what new supercar someone comes out with. The same thing goes for a D'Agostino amplifier for me.

I understand that you're passionate about this hobby and promoting the things that you believe in and trying to root out what's better than this or that but it seems like you choose to spend a lot of time on the PS user forum and here "hate watching" and I don't really get it.

The Porsche‘s are quite loud … not good for your (HF) hearing ;-)

… and one gets the HP promised too and if in doubt they measure and fix it for you

 

[CtheArgie]

Well, I'll play armchair psychologist here and say that I've seen a lot of mock outrage or general animous towards very expensive things. I understand the championing of "best value" and "bang for buck" components and Amir have done an awesome job with that here with a variety of products (starting with the chinese DACs). Especially for those entering to hobby, it's a great resource.

But why the hate about something that you will likely never be in the market for or even try to experience? I think that it is at least in part, sour grapes, as the Aesop fable goes. Because they are out of reach, they must be sour.

I have been reading about the phenomenon of "hate watching". Why do people repeatedly watch something they dislike so they can belittle and ridicule it? One thought is that they are channeling and releasing negativity from other parts of life (bad mood, insecurities, other things).

That being said, there are some "sham" audiophile products that give other more legitimate attempts at the high-end designs and you'll see some straw man arguments about these in more legitimate discussions about other stuff.

It's also not all about certain kinds of performance for everyone. There is a level of functional art in products and reasons why someone might lust after porche or ferrari instead of a tesla or corvette that might be better in some performance metrics. Even though I will never own any of those (and drive an inexpensive SUV), I enjoy the fact that they exists and seeing what new supercar someone comes out with. The same thing goes for a D'Agostino amplifier for me.

I understand that you're passionate about this hobby and promoting the things that you believe in and trying to root out what's better than this or that but it seems like you choose to spend a lot of time on the PS user forum and here "hate watching" and I don't really get it.

You are completely outside of my reality!

We definitely can afford speakers like these! I've spent a huge amount of money in "audiophilia" over the years. Don't be a psychologist, just stay on your day job of speaker designer.

But, it is because of places like this one, ASR as one example, that I challenged myself to rediscover what it was all about. My "day job" is helping companies on the development of new drugs. That is, designing clinical trials, analyzing them and helping them interpret the results. My job is behind the scenes, but in the last two years my "client-physicians" asked me to publish with them (a commentary and a trial comparison review). Peer reviewed publications. It is when I started to apply the same parameters of my job to "audiophilia" that I truly discovered that I was conned. For years, by greedy people that took advantage of my goodwill and willingness to believe. Applying objective measures made me realize that it was all wrong. That you can really study what gets better sound and that you don't have to spend money in "Noise Harvesters" that do not harvest noise, in "power regenerators" that do not regenerate power. And have no effect on the sound.

My day job framework, applied to "sound", is what I am doing here. You do the work, you spend time in testing, you document your work, you "publish" (in the case you show your work) and then you can deliver your messages. I do know very well that developing drugs is different to hawking stereo. I still expect some integrity.

By the way, I am grateful that you wrote here. I'd rather not comment there as much as possible. Did you know that one of their posters insulted a woman and called a blind man a "moron" because he couldn't "see" something on the website? Besides insulting me at any opportunity? He was called on by Paul, but nothing happened. Now, I give him back when I feel like it.

I respect the fact that you are now trying to test. It should be the other way around. You should have told Paul the tools you needed to do the work "well". It is called R&D. You can't put a lipstick on a pig. If he didn't want to do it, you should have realized what kind of work you were getting into. It is clear you know your stuff, this is why I don't understand you. But I don't do psychology, so it is your life.

I can spend $15k on a bicycle, $8k going one week heli-skiing. It is not about the money. It is what I am getting. And this kind of subjective audio is really about satisfying insecurities. Not about sound quality. I live in an area where Ferrari's, McLarens, Lambos and expensive Porsches are a dime a dozen (incidentally, my wife has a Porsche though she rarely drives it now). That does not impress me.

As I said in your employer's site, I really have little patience for the subjective terms and the misleading advertising. Do you know that his $50 outlet is just a rebranded $7 one you can buy in Home Depo?

I have a PS Audio amp, legacy from my sorry days. I HAD respect for him. Now, I just don't know anymore. Does he believe his stuff or is he in just for the money?