Neumann KH420 Review (Studio Monitor)

[DWI]

That quote references a hypothesis long ago falsified by the NRC/Harman blind test data, which showed large (not universal, but supermajority) consumer preferences for loudspeakers with flat and smooth on axis response coupled with smooth off axis response. That is to say, what Neumann offers.

Pragmatically, that statement is really Neumann shouting “ignore that promotional deal B&W has with Abbey Road and similar marketing ruses - you really want to monitor on neutral speakers!”

What sort of twisted mind do you have to have to link a perfectly reasonable and sensible comment by a German manufacturer with another manufacturer's product in a recording studio in the UK? Where is the connection? Why not moan about PMC or ADAM, which you will also find at Abbey Road? It's not a marketing thing, they've been using them for over 30 years. My son, who is in the industry, I remember him telling me about 4 or 5 years ago he was blown away by the B&W at Abbey Road.

The research you refer to is not universally accepted, even by makers of some of the best studio monitors who also make domestic speakers, nor does the logic work that the flattest speakers will be the best for domestic playback. It doesn't work in practise either.

 

[Waxx]

Also the B&W in Abby Road is not the standard one that you can buy, the crossover is tweaked a lot to fit the needs of Abby Road (less bright, so flatter in response).

 

[maxxevv]

Oh heavens … first person shooter, tube amp and then the big Genelecs at about 1m listening distance. Oh well, whatever floats your boat

Take a closer look at what the tube amp is tied to....

Headphones & portable audio - HIFIMAN.com

 

[DSJR]

Also the B&W in Abby Road is not the standard one that you can buy, the crossover is tweaked a lot to fit the needs of Abby Road (less bright, so flatter in response).

Well doesn't that just say it all? I bet no mention is ever made of that in B&W's advertising/promotion..

 

[Frgirard]

Well doesn't that just say it all? I bet no mention is ever made of that in B&W's advertising/promotion..

Here ?

STUDIO

At the heart of Amsterdam Mastering is one of the most high-end mastering rooms to be found anywhere in the world. Completed at the beginning of 2009, it was designed by Thomas Jouanjean of Northward Acoustics and built by a ... Read More

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or
we can Greg Calbi in the previous Sterling Sound studio with B&W.

No competent professional needs a neutral or flat speaker to give the best.
Only hard-working and audiophile beliefs and fake news peddlers.

 

[Frgirard]

What sort of twisted mind do you have to have to link a perfectly reasonable and sensible comment by a German manufacturer with another manufacturer's product in a recording studio in the UK? Where is the connection? Why not moan about PMC or ADAM, which you will also find at Abbey Road? It's not a marketing thing, they've been using them for over 30 years. My son, who is in the industry, I remember him telling me about 4 or 5 years ago he was blown away by the B&W at Abbey Road.

The research you refer to is not universally accepted, even by makers of some of the best studio monitors who also make domestic speakers, nor does the logic work that the flattest speakers will be the best for domestic playback. It doesn't work in practise either.

+1

The audiophile world fantasizes a lot about the professional world.
Probably because of the qualifier engineer which is undue for 99% of business operators.

 

[test1223]

If you apply an eq to the bigger b&w speaker they sound more neutral than a lot of other exotic studio monitors. The 802N got a preference score of 8.3 with perfect sub and eq here. The drivers are very good and the cabinet is also very well build. They also sound very good if they are well integrated. Remember you can build a speaker for a room or a room for a speaker. I wouldn't use these speakers as monitors but there are way worse monitor speakers in use.

 

[thewas]

If you apply an eq to the bigger b&w speaker they sound more neutral than a lot of other exotic studio monitors. The 802N got a preference score of 8.3 with perfect sub and eq here. The drivers are very good and the cabinet is also very well build. They also sound very good if they are well integrated. Remember you can build a speaker for a room or a room for a speaker. I wouldn't use these speakers as monitors but there are way worse monitor speakers in use.

Please keep in mind though that the 802N belongs to the older generations of B&W which had smoother directivity, most newer ones won't reach that score with EQ.

 

[test1223]

Please keep in mind though that the 802N belongs to the older generations of B&W which had smoother directivity, most newer ones won't reach that score with EQ.

The 802N is the one which is more often used as a studio monitor as fare as I know. I haven't seen meaningful measurement or heard a later flag ship model of B&W.

Edit: there is the 803 D3 which can also reaches a good 8.5 preference score with eq and perfect sub here. The DI looks a bit rough but didn't have the dip at 4kHz. I guess it will also sound very good since the engineers at B&W know what they are doing.

 

[thewas]

The 802N is the one which is more often used as a studio monitor as fare as I know. I haven't seen meaningful measurement or heard a later flag ship model of B&W.

I have the feeling back in those days you would find more often some B&Ws in studios, although the famous Abbey Roads I think always updates to the newer models, but their relation is special...

 

[Eetu]

Bringing it back on topic to the Neumann, why hasn't the auto EQ addressed the bass dip? I'm assuming the post-EQ preference score takes a hit because of it..

 

[fineMen]

The two speakers will cause more 8361 or less kh420 none direct sound at the listening position. This is very relevant as you can see the sound power di of the 8361 is about 1.5dB lower ...

So, 1.5dB is considered to be of crucial relevance. Isn't that a change that would easily occur from changing the furniture?

The other way round: what happens if one uses an equaliser to make the in-room responses equal? Of course the direct sound would change, but how much; would it fall out of a reasonable tolerance band?

 

[DWI]

Well doesn't that just say it all? I bet no mention is ever made of that in B&W's advertising/promotion..

The irony is that B&W don't talk about Abbey Road in their advertising or product descriptions. That would be really cheap.

I suspect of more value to B&W's top end market is their relationship with BMW, and far more people likely to spend £15,000+ on a speaker system are likely to have a BMW or other car brand with a B&W system than know or care about Abbey Road. If I hadn't driven or walked past Abbey Road or passed it on my bus on the way to school for about 25 years, I wouldn't give the place a second thought. An equally or more iconic, and certainly historically more important recording studios, BBC Maida Vale, is less than a mile away. PMC was started when the BBC asked a couple of their engineers to upgrade their speaker systems.

 

[test1223]

So, 1.5dB is considered to be of crucial relevance. Isn't that a change that would easily occur from changing the furniture?

The other way round: what happens if one uses an equaliser to make the in-room responses equal? Of course the direct sound would change, but how much; would it fall out of a reasonable tolerance band?

In sound power DI 1.5dB is a one or two class bigger speaker. The sound power DI difference of a monopol to a dipol is about 3.8dB to bring things into perspective.
Yes, the room acoustics plays also an important role to choose the listening distance and to choose the better fitting speaker. Even if you apply an equalizer to both speaks they will still sound differently. If you did the same with the 1237 and kh420 the difference would be a lot smaller.

Edit: to get 1.5dB sound power out of the room you usually need a much bigger change than using two or four damping elements.

 

[DWI]

+1

The audiophile world fantasizes a lot about the professional world.
Probably because of the qualifier engineer which is undue for 99% of business operators.

I'm curious about this. I'm first and foremost a music lover, have gone to many thousands of live concerts, bought thousands of recordings, always used consumer audio, you might consider me an audiophile, but I've never given any thought about professional audio.

I get that in the pop/rock world a lot is invested in commercial recording and the recoding process and engineering develops a lot of mystique, because media sales are a large part of profits and revenues.

However, as someone who consumes mostly classical music, it is often just a by-product of live performance. An orchestra, band or instrumentalist will work on a piece, include it in their performance repertoire and their record label will often arrange a recording. This can often be done in 1 to 2 days, as the recording and engineering process is long established and routine. A friend recorded two major concertos with a leading orchestra, rehearsals and recording was done in 3 days and it was released 10 weeks later. The quality of the product is largely dependent upon the using the same venue and mostly the same recording engineers, often for decades, because consumers like me want to hear a consistent acoustic from one recording to the next.

 

[Frgirard]

I'm curious about this. I'm first and foremost a music lover, have gone to many thousands of live concerts, bought thousands of recordings, always used consumer audio, you might consider me an audiophile, but I've never given any thought about professional audio.

I get that in the pop/rock world a lot is invested in commercial recording and the recoding process and engineering develops a lot of mystique, because media sales are a large part of profits and revenues.

However, as someone who consumes mostly classical music, it is often just a by-product of live performance. An orchestra, band or instrumentalist will work on a piece, include it in their performance repertoire and their record label will often arrange a recording. This can often be done in 1 to 2 days, as the recording and engineering process is long established and routine. A friend recorded two major concertos with a leading orchestra, rehearsals and recording was done in 3 days and it was released 10 weeks later. The quality of the product is largely dependent upon the using the same venue and mostly the same recording engineers, often for decades, because consumers like me want to hear a consistent acoustic from one recording to the next.

You don't seem to be an audiophile to me since you buy consumer equipment

Since 2009, I no longer want to pay the delirious margins and fanciful prices of brands which in the world of industry and in the face of rational customers would not survive.

The dicothomy between professional speaker vs hifi speaker is a myth. The two differences are the sale circuit and the esthetic.

I have 55 and after more 3000 CD (60% classical) and one thousand of concert.... your point of view is not my point of view.
The majors no longer record but offer a range of services to the producer and the others are nothing can be generalized.
For your last sentence, i do the opposite : the discovery and what matters to me is the respect of tonality. The acoustics don't matter as long as they aren't intrusive like lieder or a reverberated piano sonata.

I have no problem listening to mono recordings like this

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[thewas]

The irony is that B&W don't talk about Abbey Road in their advertising or product descriptions. That would be really cheap.

Really?
Just the from the first page of google results (total 161.000! results when you google for both included):

Blog - Behind the scenes at Abbey Road: 800 D3 installation | Bowers & Wilkins

Bowers & Wilkins loudspeakers have arrived at the recently refurbished Studio One at Abbey Road Studios. We share a behind-the-scenes look at setting up the 800 D3s in the world's best recording studio.

www.bowerswilkins.com

Abbey Road Partnership | Bowers & Wilkins

Abbey Road Studios and Bowers & Wilkins announce a new strategic partnership, uniting two of the world's most esteemed audio brands.

www.bowerswilkins.com

Blog - How We Make | Bowers & Wilkins

An exceptional range of loudspeakers deserves a special launch event. That’s why we revealed the new 800 Series Diamond to the world from inside Studio Two of the world-famous Abbey Road Studios.

www.bowerswilkins.com

B&W and Abbey Road Studios extend partnership to focus on in-car audio

Studio sound on four wheels

www.whathifi.com

Bowers & Wilkins: The Official Speakers of Abbey Road Studios

Did you know that Abbey Road Studios features Bowers & Wilkins speakers? Learn more about B&W for your Dunwoody-area home in Georgia Home Theater’s blog.

ghtgroup.com

Abbey Road and B&W Partnership Aims to Bring Studio Quality to In-Car Audio

Abbey Road Studios and Bowers & Wilkins take their partnership to another level, aiming to improve the in-car audio experience of drivers and passengers.

www.autoevolution.com

B&W und Abbey-Road-Studios besiegeln Partnerschaft

www.stereo.de

Bowers & Wilkins 800 D3 in den Abbey Road Studios - News fairaudio

Um den hohen Ansprüchen bei den Monitoring-Arbeiten gerecht zu werden, setzen die Abbey Road Studios insbesondere auf den avancierten Sound der B&W 800 D3-Flaggschifflautsprecher. Insgesamt dienen die Lautsprecher (und Kopfhörer) von Bowers & Wilkins gleich in fünf verschiedenen...

www.fairaudio.de

 

[DWI]

Really?
Just the from the first page of google results (total 161.000! results when you google for both included):

Blog - Behind the scenes at Abbey Road: 800 D3 installation | Bowers & Wilkins

Bowers & Wilkins loudspeakers have arrived at the recently refurbished Studio One at Abbey Road Studios. We share a behind-the-scenes look at setting up the 800 D3s in the world's best recording studio.

www.bowerswilkins.com

Abbey Road Partnership | Bowers & Wilkins

Abbey Road Studios and Bowers & Wilkins announce a new strategic partnership, uniting two of the world's most esteemed audio brands.

www.bowerswilkins.com

Blog - How We Make | Bowers & Wilkins

An exceptional range of loudspeakers deserves a special launch event. That’s why we revealed the new 800 Series Diamond to the world from inside Studio Two of the world-famous Abbey Road Studios.

www.bowerswilkins.com

B&W and Abbey Road Studios extend partnership to focus on in-car audio

Studio sound on four wheels

www.whathifi.com

Bowers & Wilkins: The Official Speakers of Abbey Road Studios

Did you know that Abbey Road Studios features Bowers & Wilkins speakers? Learn more about B&W for your Dunwoody-area home in Georgia Home Theater’s blog.

ghtgroup.com

Abbey Road and B&W Partnership Aims to Bring Studio Quality to In-Car Audio

Abbey Road Studios and Bowers & Wilkins take their partnership to another level, aiming to improve the in-car audio experience of drivers and passengers.

www.autoevolution.com

B&W und Abbey-Road-Studios besiegeln Partnerschaft

www.stereo.de

Bowers & Wilkins 800 D3 in den Abbey Road Studios - News fairaudio

Um den hohen Ansprüchen bei den Monitoring-Arbeiten gerecht zu werden, setzen die Abbey Road Studios insbesondere auf den avancierten Sound der B&W 800 D3-Flaggschifflautsprecher. Insgesamt dienen die Lautsprecher (und Kopfhörer) von Bowers & Wilkins gleich in fünf verschiedenen...

www.fairaudio.de

Yes - press releases about commercial partnerships, blogs and an article from their website about installing a set of speakers in a studio.

None of which is using their Abbey Road relationship in advertising or product marketing, which is what was being suggested.

Well doesn't that just say it all? I bet no mention is ever made of that in B&W's advertising/promotion..

 

[Pearljam5000]

Which is more common in studios in general Genelec or Neumann?

 

[thewas]

Yes - press releases about commercial partnerships, blogs and an article from their website about installing a set of speakers in a studio.

None of which is using their Abbey Road relationship in advertising or product marketing, which is what was being suggested.

Those press releases made to be reprinted by the related magazines, blog articles etc ARE some of the most important forms of modern advertising and marketing.