Grimm Audio LS1BE- why so expensive?

[oivavoi]

Back to the Grimm's in particular. What exactly does is do "better"?

I'm talking about what comes out, not what goes in as new technology (which isn't that fresh to begin with)

Ok, I'll try: for one it achieves controlled and moderatlely wide directivity. It achieves this primarily with the wide and contoured baffle. This kind of directivity creates strong imaging but at the same time a pleasant feeling of spaciousness, given the spectrally correct field of reflections. Controlled directivity is not unique for thr LS1, of course. But its directivity is wider than that of the Kii3 or the 8C or the Genelecs (I think - writing from memory here).

Bass is very good for the size of the speaker.

Frequency response very good, no resonances to speak of etc.

Drivers which work very well for their intended purpose.

Active crossover - probably has benefits - and light use of DSP which doesn't "overcorrect".

Everything else is top-notch, though the audibility of all of that is very much up for debate - amps, dac, jitter, etc.

Pleasing to the eye, which fools our foolish brains/ears into thinking the sound is also more beautiful.

All in all it's a complete package which really does most things right. (the designer Bruno lays out the rationale for the first version here: https://pdf4pro.com/view/ls1-l2-grimm-audio-5aed63.html)

I very much doubt, however, that one would be able to hear differences between the BE version and the first version. I may be wrong of course, but that's my hunch.

And it's very expensive. So why not just buy the Kii3, the D&D 8C or Genelecs? Having listened to all of these speakers many times I do think that the LS1 is one step up. That assessment is all sighted and may be heavily biased, but that was my impression. Many people also find the LS1 more pleasing to the eye, which may or may not be important for the purchasing decision.

Would I buy it if I had the money? Probably. A man gotta allow himself some pleasures, and I'm a non-drinking vegan who doesn't drive or fly, so there's not that many vices for me left, other than spending obscene money on unnecessary audio thingies. But for the foreseeable future it will probably remain out of my price range.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Ok, I'll try: for one it achieves controlled and moderatlely wide directivity. It achieves this primarily with the wide and contoured baffle. This kind of directivity creates strong imaging but at the same time a pleasant feeling of spaciousness, given the spectrally correct field of reflections. Controlled directivity is not unique for thr LS1, of course. But its directivity is wider than that of the Kii3 or the 8C or the Genelecs (I think - writing from memory here).

Bass is very good for the size of the speaker.

Frequency response very good, no resonances to speak of etc.

Drivers which work very well for their intended purpose.

Active crossover - probably has benefits - and light use of DSP which doesn't "overcorrect".

Everything else is top-notch, though the audibility of all of that is very much up for debate - amps, dac, jitter, etc.

Pleasing to the eye, which fools our foolish brains/ears into thinking the sound is also more beautiful.

All in all it's a complete package which really does most things right. (the designer Bruno lays out the rationale for the first version here: https://pdf4pro.com/view/ls1-l2-grimm-audio-5aed63.html)

I very much doubt, however, that one would be able to hear differences between the BE version and the first version. I may be wrong of course, but that's my hunch.

And it's very expensive. So why not just buy the Kii3, the D&D 8C or Genelecs? Having listened to all of these speakers many times I do think that the LS1 is one step up. That assessment is all sighted and may be heavily biased, but that was my impression. Many people also find the LS1 more pleasing to the eye, which may or may not be important for the purchasing decision.

Would I buy it if I had the money? Probably. A man gotta allow himself some pleasures, and I'm a non-drinking vegan who doesn't drive or fly, so there's not that many vices for me left, other than spending obscene money on unnecessary audio thingies. But for the foreseeable future it will probably remain out of my price range.

SQ wise in what way is it one step up over the Genelecs?

 

[oivavoi]

SQ wise in what way is it one step up over the Genelecs?

Difficult to say, and it's all from memory and different rooms (have listened to the Grimms three times and the top-line Genelecs four times, not in direct comparison). So take this with tons of grains of salt. My feeling was that the Grimms were more "natural" and involving. Of course totally vague and subjective. But with them I have been fooled into believing I am witnessing a real auditory scene. With the Genelecs i haven't been fooled into believing that, in stereo at least. I did one time hear a Auro 3D multichannel rig with only genelecs, and that is my all time favorite audio experience.

If there's something to this it probably has lots to do with dispersion.

 

[JustJones]

Reading this thread Almost makes me wish I bought that set of LS1V2 with the LS1s subwoofers less than 1 year old for $12K I saw on Reverb.

Strange they raised the price before they sold they were $12K at one time.

https://reverb.com/item/48959432-gr...ubwoofers-ls1i-usb-interface-trade-acceptable

 

[Pearljam5000]

Reading this thread Almost makes me wish I bought that set of LS1V2 with the LS1s subwoofers less than 1 year old for $12K I saw on Reverb.

That was a bargain at that price

 

[JustJones]

Difficult to say, and it's all from memory and different rooms (have listened to the Grimms three times and the top-line Genelecs four times, not in direct comparison). So take this with tons of grains of salt. My feeling was that the Grimms were more "natural" and involving. Of course totally vague and subjective. But with them I have been fooled into believing I am witnessing a real auditory scene. With the Genelecs i haven't been fooled into believing that, in stereo at least. I did one time hear a Auro 3D multichannel rig with only genelecs, and that is my all time favorite audio experience.

If there's something to this it probably has lots to do with dispersion.

Similar to to my totally vague and subjective opinion with my current Focal Trio 11be. I prefer them to the Dutch and Dutch 8c and Genelec 8351b I had. I believe it's to do with a wider dispersion. I have them set higher than you normally would with the tweeter about 10" higher than ear level, 7feet apart not quite an equilateral triangle. I have to use more room treatments than with the DD or Genelec and a Minidsp SHD but I am not locked into my seat and I get a very nice immersive impression. I've never heard the Genelec immersive system but yes, I would think it's hard to better.

 

[oivavoi]

Similar to to my totally vague and subjective opinion with my current Focal Trio 11be. I prefer them to the Dutch and Dutch 8c and Genelec 8351b I had. I believe it's to do with a wider dispersion. I have them set higher than you normally would with the tweeter about 10" higher than ear level, 7feet apart not quite an equilateral triangle. I have to use more room treatments than with the DD or Genelec and a Minidsp SHD but I am not locked into my seat and I get a very nice immersive impression. I've never heard the Genelec immersive system but yes, I would think it's hard to better.

Cool. Really curious to hear those Focal Trio be's. They seem to me as the current high end offering which probably gives most bang for the bucks soundwise!

 

[DWI]

Pleasing to the eye, which fools our foolish brains/ears into thinking the sound is also more beautiful.

I don’t think there is any manufacturer of consumer products that does not try and make their products pleasing to the eye. People have to live with these products and, forget performance, most normal people don't like ugly things in their homes.

The elephant in the room is that Genelec are not pretty, unsurprising as they are not designed for domestic use. When they did a version for stereo audio, they thought they could cover up their ugliness by painting them white, presumably assuming people who choose Genelec for home use haven't got round to decorating. It's not something they've pursued because you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. I've seen a lot of elephants, my wife likes them, and Genelec remind me of elephant dung, a similar shape and colour (the wet muddy sort, not the grassy stuff).

The color and shape of speakers used for professional monitoring is of course of no consequence, people are unlikely to care, because they are there to do a job of work. For people's living rooms, if it looks like s$$t, it could be the best speaker in the world, but I can't see many people buying it.

 

[VMAT4]

Well now, is there a sucker born every minute? Of course these are worth $30,000 to right people.

 

[Purité Audio]

Both the Gens and the LS1’s are the shape they need to be, form follows function, unlike many ‘high end ‘ loudspeakers.
Keith

 

[DWI]

Both the Gens and the LS1’s are the shape they need to be, form follows function, unlike many ‘high end ‘ loudspeakers.
Keith

The second and third principles of good design:

Good design makes a product useful​

A product is bought to be used. It has to satisfy certain criteria, not only functional, but also psychological and aesthetic. Good design emphasizes the usefulness of a product whilst disregarding anything that could possibly detract from it.

Good design is aesthetic​

The aesthetic quality of a product is integral to its usefulness because products we use every day affect our person and our well-being. But only well-executed objects can be beautiful.

Good design | About us | Vitsœ

Dieter Rams, Vitsœ's furniture designer. Ten principles for good design (sometimes referred to as the ‘Ten commandments’).

www.vitsoe.com

 

[Purité Audio]

Who am I to disagree with Dieter but personally I am primarily interested in the sound rather than the aesthetics of loudspeakers.
Listening at the moment to the best and almost certainly the least attractive design I have had here.
Keith

 

[Axo1989]

All in all it's a complete package which really does most things right. (the designer Bruno lays out the rationale for the first version here: https://pdf4pro.com/view/ls1-l2-grimm-audio-5aed63.html)

Great read, thanks for that link. I'd seen the Grimm design before but before this thread didn't realise it came from Putzeys.

 

[Pearljam5000]

They somehow remind of these Devore speakers

 

[thewas]

They somehow remind of these Devore speakers
View attachment 199737

Measurement and engineering quality is worlds apart though, same as a the bafffle depth which is on purpose quite narrow on the Grimm. For all who haven't read it yet, their white paper is a good read about loudspeaker engineering in this century:

Grimm Audio’s LS1 is an unusual loudspeaker. Its wide but shallow cabinet is the direct opposite of nearly all contemporary loudspeakers and the DSP filter is mainly IIR based in spite of the availability of cheap DSP. Why? This white paper argues that all choices derive from basic acoustics, signal theory and psychoacoustics.

https://www.grimmaudio.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/speakers.pdf

 

[fineMen]

... This kind of directivity creates strong imaging but at the same time a pleasant feeling of spaciousness, ...

Not provable.

... very good for the size of the speaker.

Basically a flaw: too small it is to be one of the "best".

... Pleasing to the eye, which fools our foolish brains/ears into thinking the sound is also more beautiful.

Exactly.

... I do think that the LS1 is one step up. That assessment is all sighted and may be heavily biased, but that was my impression. Many people also find the LS1 more pleasing to the eye, ...

I absolutely do not tempt to pick on You.

More generally I see that most people here miss the idea of the spinorama and subsequent speaker assessment by objective rules. The "circle of confusion" isn't understood. The essence of a recording isn't understood.

I understand that this is a hobby, owning, discussing, buying again for improvements. As opposed to that, I'm happy with the idea that there is an end, namely having a spinorama approved speaker of appropriate size. Conflict, right?

What brought me up here is a wording like "mind blowing" when describing the performance of a humble, too small, otherwise just halfway correct speaker.

Yeah, stereo tricks ones brain as You said - in making people buy too expensive stuff for no good reason to only worsen things.

 

[Sal1950]

Yes obviously the dry specs don't tell the whole story but I just don't understand what's so special about them that makes them worth $30,000 per pair.

They have the right connections in High End media which will ensure them good reviews and nod's from the right people.
That Is All

 

[Eetu]

Looks good to me. This is the original non-Be version without the sub, most buyers get the sub as well.

 

[thewas]

Looks good to me. This is the original non-Be version without the sub, most buyers get the sub as well.

It is good, it is engineered by Bruno Putzeys and was, when it was released in 2010, one of the few hifi loudspeakers which considered directivity down to modal region where it matters (by the wide baffle), so before Kii, D&D, etc. came up with active or passive cardioids (only ME Geithain was in that domain quite earlier from the known studio monitor brands). It sounds and measures well, has high quality components, solid engineering and looks good, in 2010 it had really no direct competitor (MEG RL 901K and other wide baffle monitors designs do not really have a high WAF ) so it was priced accordingly, the later BE versions cost of course too much extra and are probably marketed towards a specific public which won't be encountered frequently here in ASR.

 

[fineMen]

... their white paper is a good read about loudspeaker engineering in this century:
...

https://www.grimmaudio.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/speakers.pdf

I do not read it this way. It is true that the "white paper" is written in a convincing tone, rings some bells in that it reaches out a bit further into tech-territory than typical hifi-magazines.

But ... not my cup of tea, too light and in parts plain irrelevant as to justify the price of the finished product (first version already), which is deliberately described as "high end".

Did KEF do wrong? The wide baffle thing, rounded edges (not needed on top, how special!) etc., using the SEAS DTX etc, good driver motor for the bass etc., that doesn't make an outstanding speaker. It is trivial.

The industrial design is it alone. I like it! Kudos to the designer. Some people buy sofas for their design, and are happy even if it is expensive. More so, the high cost makes it literally exclusive. There is fun in saying: "Me have it, You not!"

That was it from my side.