Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[antcollinet]

And that's where they lose me.
I can't understand...

Horses for courses, innit. You don't have to understand it for it to be valid.

 

[Sal1950]

A night that will live in infamy. Infamy I tell you!

A pox on the soul-less music.
Rock & roll + R & B rule.
LOL

 

[killdozzer]

My entire point is that niche is NOT a driving force behind the grand scale revival. Niche is always niche. That's why I said, and I repeat, you won't learn enough from true devotees and niche crowd of true records-aficionados. You might learn from disinterested observers who are able to analyze and describe a phenomena with it's ugly and pretty sides. People who feel a bond with a medium will often pretty-it-up.

This is simply a phenomena where niche and fad overlap, but you won't explain one by explaining the other.

 

[Robin L]

My entire point is that niche is NOT a driving force behind the grand scale revival. Niche is always niche. That's why I said, and I repeat, you won't learn enough from true devotees and niche crowd of true records-aficionados. You might learn from disinterested observers who are able to analyze and describe a phenomena with it's ugly and pretty sides. People who feel a bond with a medium will often pretty-it-up.

This is simply a phenomena where niche and fad overlap, but you won't explain one by explaining the other.

I'm not sure how "grand scale" the LP revival is. Just as LPs are excessively hyped as a signifier of musical involvement so are the increases in sales of LPs. If anything in physical media is expanding on a "Grand Scale" it is the inevitable expansion of the used market, specifically with CDs. LPs, thanks to wear [a very real thing, don't let Mikey fool you on this one], do not have the rate of increase in available product as do CDs, thanks to their lack of wear. I don't know if anyone is tracking sales of used titles, but we all know it's a buyer's market for used CDs.

The real shift is to streaming of course. That's where the big numbers are piling up now. I'd say we're getting the appearance of a mass revival for various reasons, but LPs are not all that big now compared to where they were when LPs were the thing for real, like 1977. LP sales are a small part of the market. The hype gives the impression that everyone is playing LPs when they're not.

 

[killdozzer]

I'm not sure how "grand scale" the LP revival is. Just as LPs are excessively hyped as a signifier of musical involvement so are the increases in sales of LPs. If anything in physical media is expanding on a "Grand Scale" it is the inevitable expansion of the used market, specifically with CDs. LPs, thanks to wear [a very real thing, don't let Mikey fool you on this one], do not have the rate of increase in available product as do CDs, thanks to their lack of wear. I don't know if anyone is tracking sales of used titles, but we all know it's a buyer's market for used CDs.

The real shift is to streaming of course. That's where the big numbers are piling up now. I'd say we're getting the appearance of a mass revival for various reasons, but LPs are not all that big now compared to where they were when LPs were the thing for real, like 1977. LP sales are a small part of the market. The hype gives the impression that everyone is playing LPs when they're not.

I agree, for sure. But some members provided some numbers showing an increase from 0,4% to 6 or 7 (please don't make me look for it), which is significant enough if it represents an overall increase in global sales. Even if we're not considering the comparison, but look at those numbers as stand alone, those are decent numbers. A single percentage, if it's worldwide is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[JP]

Depends, but the examples I'm thinking of would be streaming from my phone in my car, and streaming from my music server to my 2-channel system using my iphone as the remote interface.

Curious as I don't want to assume: What are you trying to assess?

Patterns and habits surrounding an experience influence the experience. For instance the 'vinyl changed my life' article that was posted several weeks back. The author completely changed their habits for the vinyl experience and then noted it was quite different from their usual experience. Wow, no shit?

If I have my phone (remote) within reach I'm far more likely to skip songs before they finish, and/or get distracted by other stuff. Pesky dopamine.

 

[Robin L]

Patterns and habits surrounding an experience influence the experience. For instance the 'vinyl changed my life' article that was posted several weeks back. The author completely changed their habits for the vinyl experience and then noted it was quite different from their usual experience. Wow, no shit?

If I have my phone (remote) within reach I'm far more likely to skip songs before they finish, and/or get distracted by other stuff. Pesky dopamine.

I always skipped songs. That's one of the reasons why I had issues with LPs, because skipping tracks meant exponentially increased stylus wear. Did a fair amount of needledropping for radio shows produced at home. Also back-cuing LPs for radio [Technics SP-10, SME II arm, Stanton cartridge, really good turntable for the purpose, really good otherwise].

The ease with which one can jump around tracks, make playlists, skip around different versions of the same movement of a symphony---these are features, not bugs. Having to sit through a whole side of a record, waiting for the sound to go all to hell is not my idea of "commitment to music". I'd say it more likely indicates a certain species of masochism. Yes, I know from "Astral Weeks", I can still hear the end-of-side wear in my head. If I really want to hear "Astral Weeks" as a song cycle, I'm still better off with the CD or streaming, where the cycle isn't broken in half, like it is on the LP. And the reality is that a lot of records are the hits plus filler.

I guess my patterns and habits indicate I was ready to get rid of my LPs long before I actually did.

 

[BillyChilly]

In a world where things now become obsolete rather quickly (phones), it is good to understand the things that got us to where we are. Vinyl is such a thing. It's a shame that people are so "connected" that they don't know how to fix basic things around the house. Take a fuse in a microwave, replacing an air filter, changing a tire. The people who know how to fix such things are dying fast, and the "kids these days" are more interested in the latest social app update. They are, or at least might be, in trouble! For these reasons, people who are learning about something that is in fact becoming obsolete is a good thing. Turntables are machines of precision and so very damn cool IMHO.

From a strictly musical standpoint, I want to be able to play anything I find, or which walks through my door. Take a mix tape from an old girlfriend in the 80s, for example....perhaps a R2R that I find in my 95 year old grandfather's basement. I wanna be able to listen to it. It isn't a stretch to say that it might not be available digitally, or extremely hard to find. I was unable to find a song or two from a 1987 soundtrack just a few minutes ago. Bummer.

 

[JP]

I always skipped songs. That's one of the reasons why I had issues with LPs, because skipping tracks meant exponentially increased stylus wear. Did a fair amount of needledropping for radio shows produced at home. Also back-cuing LPs for radio [Technics SP-10, SME ii arm, Stanton cartridge, really good turntable for the purpose, really good otherwise].

The ease with which one can jump around tracks, make playlists, skip around different versions of the same movement of a symphony---these are features, not bugs. Having to sit through a whole side of a record, waiting for the sound to go all to hell is not my idea of "commitment to music". I'd say it more likely indicates a certain species of masochism. Yes, I know from "Astral Weeks", I can still hear the end-of-side wear in my head. If I really want to hear "Astral Weeks" as a song cycle, I'm still better off with the CD or streaming, where the cycle isn't broken in half, like it is on the LP. And the reality is that a lot of records are the hits plus filler.

I guess my patterns and habits indicate I was ready to get rid of my LPs long before I actually did.

Yes, it helps to understand one's goals and objectives. I just find it interesting that a lot of folks drastically change their habits when listening to LPs, but the thought that changing the equation is likely to change the outcome escapes most.

 

[Robin L]

Yes, it helps to understand one's goals and objectives. I just find it interesting that a lot of folks drastically change their habits when listening to LPs, but the thought that changing the equation is likely to change the outcome escapes most.

Right. I got rid of my LPs soon after getting a good guitar. Changed my relationship to music completely.

 

[BillyChilly]

Right. I got rid of my LPs soon after getting a good guitar. Changed my relationship to music completely.

You must be a very, very good player.

Making music > live music > playing recordings

 

[hvbias]

As I've said: I play vinyl on my system as much for what-I-perceive-as the sound quality as anything else. String sections, for instance, have so often sounded artificial to me in reproduced sound (when most of my listening was digital). I find myself more often thinking "wow those sound like real strings" playing vinyl than I ever did from my digital music collection. (My hunch is that vinyl can sometimes add a textural distortion that I find consonant with a sense of "presence" like bows on strings). I seek to be engaged sonically as well as musically when sitting down to listen to my 2 channel system and I wouldn't have gotten back in to vinyl if it were only for the "physical charm" aspect. (Which doesn't mean the physical aspects couldn't be affecting my perception of the sonic qualities). In fact my physical record collection is just edging towards a "storage problem" that I have to be careful about.

I live pretty close to the NYPO and BSO, and try and attend concerts for music I'm interested in as much as possible. My best friend's mother is also a specialist violinist in baroque music (so modern HIP style of interpretation) and good digital recordings have always sounded more like real life. Vinyl can add a pleasing quality to strings and woodwinds, but pleasing doesn't equate to real.

I've never heard Devore speakers, Audio Note (I guess updated Snell?) speakers sounded comically bad on piano recordings. All of these non-wave guide tweeter mismatched to over sized midwoofer have never sounded any good to me.

 

[MattHooper]

My entire point is that niche is NOT a driving force behind the grand scale revival. Niche is always niche.

Vinyl is still niche. You can ask people why they buy vinyl and find out those reasons.

That's why I said, and I repeat, you won't learn enough from true devotees and niche crowd of true records-aficionados. You might learn from disinterested observers who are able to analyze and describe a phenomena with it's ugly and pretty sides. People who feel a bond with a medium will often pretty-it-up.

There is certainly some truth to that, in the following sense: It's like if you are investigating the claims of a religion or cult. You will get the very "best" spin on the religion, and the least objective take on the cult leader from the devotees. A truly disinterested observer (say, a sociologist or whatever) can give a wider, clearer picture of what's going on.

On the other hand, balanced against that problem is the other one I keep pointing out: Most of us are not disinterested observers.
If you've ever been on the "other side" of a debate, ESPECIALLY if you are defending something the other side disparages, then you can set your watch to when your position will be strawmanned by the other side. Opponents of your view will rarely accurately portray your view. That's what you continually see in social media, in debates, and in online forums. It's why we can count on the "subjectivists" who think measurements are beside the point to constantly mischaracterize the methods and motivations of people on ASR. It's just human nature: you personally think something isn't worthwhile or misguided, so you aren't that motivated to really put effort in to understanding why it might be worthwhile, and the easier and more self-rewarding thing to do is put it down to some lower form of motivation - "it's just someone trying to be one of the crowd, a hipster, blowing up his own ego, someone simply manipulated by marketing" etc. This is both easier than seeking understanding, it's more natural to do that, and you get the quick dopamine squirt of feeling and implying you are above such nonsense. (Note how people on social media LOVE to call other people "Sheeple.")

So unfortunately it goes both ways.

This is why when I've listed the motivations for getting in to vinyl I've both explained my own experience but also taken it from a great many other people (having been looking in to the phenomenon myself for years). It's why I supplied articles and forum links with people discussing why they are in to vinyl. Also pointed out you can go through youtube where there are countless videos of people young and old talking about
their vinyl collecting to understand the motivations.

 

[Robin L]

You must be a very, very good player.

Making music > live music > playing recordings

No, but jamming with others is more fun than cleaning the stylus.

 

[MattHooper]

I live pretty close to the NYPO and BSO, and try and attend concerts for music I'm interested in as much as possible. My best friend's mother is also a specialist violinist in baroque music (so modern HIP style of interpretation) and good digital recordings have always sounded more like real life.

Fair enough if that's your experience. I have tons of CDs (ripped) that sound very realistic (insofar as reproduced can sound real). I'm not for a second saying vinyl sounds real across the board, even in my own set up. That would be silly. And since vinyl playback can be finicky - it can sound all over the map depending on the playback device or how someone has set up his cartridge etc - there's no universal "vinyl sound" in that sense. I'm just saying that in my particular set up (and I could extend that to a friend's as well), there are some aspects that I both like and that can remind me more of the real thing.

Vinyl can add a pleasing quality to strings and woodwinds, but pleasing doesn't equate to real.

Agreed. Unless that pleasing quality is because it sounds a bit more natural/real to someone.

When I compare some digital tracks to some vinyl tracks, I can hear some aspects of the "real thing" done better in the digital, some aspects produced by the vinyl. I like both, but can sometimes find I prefer the things the vinyl seems to be "getting right/mimicking" to be a bit more compelling. So for instance if I had a choice between the digital version of a string section having zero noticeable warble at all (as in real life)
or the string section on vinyl having some detectable record warble BUT having what seems to be a more believable balance of bow texture, vividness, ease, warmth...the type of balance I remember from the real thing...then I'm likely to prefer the vinyl. I'm ok with compromises.

I've never heard Devore speakers, Audio Note (I guess updated Snell?) speakers sounded comically bad on piano recordings. All of these non-wave guide tweeter mismatched to over sized midwoofer have never sounded any good to me.

Yep. Understandable.

For me most piano recordings through a sound system sound comically deficient. It's like I'm hearing the keys being struck, floating in the air, no sense they are attached to a large resonating wooden body. It's bizarre sounding. Plus the combination of "hard/soft" attack for piano keys is really damned hard to reproduce, so most pianos sound like they have a sort of plastic or glassy glaze over the timbre - even the best recordings of great pianos tend to sound to me like pianos made of plastic.

So...when I note *something* more realistic in a piano track, especially something I care about and don't normally hear, it makes an impression on me. Where I can see others like yourself may have a different opinion seizing on other aspects of the sound.

 

[deweydm]

Might be seeing one of the ways any revived interest in vinyl could begin to die. Take a lot of the fun out of shopping for records by ripping people off.

Anecdotal, but visit multiple local shops selling new and and used records every week, and it’s getting kinda silly. New records priced five to ten bucks more than large retailers are charging, even accounting for shipping. Used records in poor or fair condition priced as if they were very good or near mint. Hard to predict when bubbles pop, but it sure feels like one.

 

[anmpr1]

Right. I got rid of my LPs soon after getting a good guitar. Changed my relationship to music completely.

But... do you remember hanging on the passage, and moving the tonearm back to the 'spot', when you were trying to figure out the notes?

In the next life I'm spending money on guitars, and not hi-fi gear. True story: in 1974 my friend bought new a Gibson 12 string Hummingbird. I bought hi-fi gear. Now, almost 50 years on, tell me which purchase increased in value?

 

[egellings]

I used to see people take disco records, coat them with lighter fluid, ignite them and then use launchers made for the purpose to send them sailing through the air.

 

[Robin L]

But... do you remember hanging on the passage, and moving the tonearm back to the 'spot', when you were trying to figure out the notes?

In the next life I'm spending money on guitars, and not hi-fi gear. True story: in 1974 my friend bought new a Gibson 12 string Hummingbird. I bought hi-fi gear. Now, almost 50 years on, tell me which purchase increased in value?

No. That sort of thing didn't start happening to me until YouTube. I suppose that is a major score in digital's favor, eh? Had a half-way decent guitar by 2012, started to play along with the videos. Got the "real" guitar in 2017. Of course, now you can go to Ultimate Guitar for chords, usually the chords for the arrangement you want to play with. All helpful/useful for a musical education.

 

[MattHooper]

But... do you remember hanging on the passage, and moving the tonearm back to the 'spot', when you were trying to figure out the notes?

In the next life I'm spending money on guitars, and not hi-fi gear. True story: in 1974 my friend bought new a Gibson 12 string Hummingbird. I bought hi-fi gear. Now, almost 50 years on, tell me which purchase increased in value?

I remember taping songs from the LPs in order to learn the parts (I played guitar/bass/drums/keyboards/sax...so it depended on the part).

I grew up in a family of musicians - dad was a jazz musician turned music teacher, my mom taught piano, every kid in the family played instruments, and my youth was in the 70's when music class and school bands still were a "thing." I'll never forget the buzz of playing in the stage band for the school concerts - and the whole school would go wild during the drum solo each year. It was unbelievably sad seeing the arts being cut back more and more over the years that followed to the point few schools had any substantial music program, and my father who'd for most of his life wrote fabulous arrangements for full concert and stage bands, found himself having to teach classes comprised only of cheap little keyboards. Music in public school never bounced back as far as I know. We sent our kids to a local private school that fortunately still had a good music program so most kids played an instrument. (I don't know what it's like now out there in the public schools for music curriculum - this is in Canada btw)