Wilson Audio TuneTot Review (high-end bookshelf speaker)

[DWI]

Well, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em seems to be the mantra. Naim have had annual price rises regardless over the years (they had one just recently) and now Linn have announced HUGE rises Jan 1st (a not wonderful tonearm which I remember was around £200 back in the early 90's became several hundred by the late 90's in 'structurally improved' form and it's going to be fifty quid short of £2k as of 2022). These two makes are still cheap in real audiophool high end terms but still massively expensive for what's inside and in my opinion, largely the performance on offer today. They seem to have enough fans out there to keep them alive, so what the heck do I know when they exist to increase prices regularly regardless...

I think it's very sad actually, but that's just me.

David, if you read Naim's corporate filings you will see that their current status is about the Uniti products, which are very much design and value based. We have one of them (Qb2) and they really hit the spot. My son is a designer in audio and works with some of the people responsible. In fact the Group Director of Design for all of Focal Naim came from their London-based design agency.

Products like the recent Uniti headphone amp are brilliant design, sensibly priced and deservedly successful.

The classic range of Naim products are fiendishly expensive, but many dealers relied on them to pay the rent. I wonder if that is still the case.

 

[rammster]

Why you didnt react to this post?

1) The core of the messages is based on irony.
2) Commentators explaining their own position and idea, even with sentences and text directed toward others, commentators are expressing themselves. You read and get the idea about commentator opinion on the speaker.

I see difference between

people who never listen to the speaker

and

people who didnt ever hear the speaker

From your comment I got an impression of undervaluing. I would prefer phrase "filled with opinions" rather than "filled with people", making them close to "uninformed crowd" than to "thoughtful individuals".
Let's assume it is just my language barrier. Sorry for excessive attention on little things.

 

[Roland]

Well, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em seems to be the mantra. Naim have had annual price rises regardless over the years (they had one just recently) and now Linn have announced HUGE rises Jan 1st (a not wonderful tonearm which I remember was around £200 back in the early 90's became several hundred by the late 90's in 'structurally improved' form and it's going to be fifty quid short of £2k as of 2022). These two makes are still cheap in real audiophool high end terms but still massively expensive for what's inside and in my opinion, largely the performance on offer today. They seem to have enough fans out there to keep them alive, so what the heck do I know when they exist to increase prices regularly regardless...

I think it's very sad actually, but that's just me.

A Casio watch tells the time just as well as a Breitling.

 

[DWI]

Marketing triumphing over actual technical performance, kind of the norm within the high end.
Did the dealer acoustically measure your room?
Keith

No because it was only on an architect's drawing at the time. Quite a lot of acoustic treatment was installed. We looked at 8c and Kii, on a laptop, but they both have stands and are boxes. Are you still near Crouch End? We've spoken a couple of times, I heard the Kii at KMR once ion their studio when I popped in to get come cables, I like the look, the wife doesn't. I see Jacob Collier, who lives locally, has done the PR for Kii. He has a bright orange pair.

 

[FrantzM]

A Casio watch tells the time just as well as a Breitling.

Correction. Casio watches tell time better than any non-Quartz Breitling...

 

[DWI]

Correction. Casio watches tell time better than any non-Quartz Breitling...

Alexa tells the time, and plays music.

 

[Purité Audio]

No because it was only on an architect's drawing at the time. Quite a lot of acoustic treatment was installed. We looked at 8c and Kii, on a laptop, but they both have stands and are boxes. Are you still near Crouch End? We've spoken a couple of times, I heard the Kii at KMR once ion their studio when I popped in to get come cables, I like the look, the wife doesn't. I see Jacob Collier, who lives locally, has done the PR for Kii. He has a bright orange pair.

Yes very near, acoustic measurement would almost certainly improve your SQ, REW is really straightforward to use,
Keith

 

[Spkrdctr]

As much as Amir says he's immune to expectation bias because he listens to so many speakers and has no stake, I just don't buy it. His subconscious brain knows he's comparing a $10,000 speaker against a $2,000 speaker. For totally valid subjective impressions(IMO, Amir's impressions are valid in some sense), the comparison needs to be blind.

That is true and Amir knows it is true. But, he still gives his overall impressions just as a guide to what he hears. Again, look for generalities in his comments such as too much treble, screeching or too much bass, not enough bass. This will point people to the speaker so they can see if they agree. They might think is is awesome or terrible. Amir CAN NOT decide for you what you will like in your room, in your house. Just can't be done. So he tests and gives us a quick word on what stood out to him in listening to them. A rough guide for us but better than nothing!

 

[Pdxwayne]

I was looking for a sweat pants for my son the other day. I saw a Nike one with original retail price of $160......Is it really 8 times better than other name brands' sweat pants sold in Costco for less than $20?

 

[MerlinGS]

Things we did NOT discuss were Fletcher-Munson, frequency response, dispersion, or anything technical. We did NOT discuss brands, we did NOT discuss design philosophies, we did NOT discuss marketing, we did NOT even discuss price. We had some speakers for a home trial, another brand that the dealer thought I would like but didn't, and the Wilson we listened to in the store. For most of that visit my wife was next door buying a dress, but she sat down and listened to some music of her choice - for about 10 minutes...Speaking to my dealer, this is a fairly normal sales experience. When I've been to the store, usually for dealer demonstrations, it is often couples. We have spent all afternoon at home listening to music and reading.

This may not be how you choose speakers, but it is how we ended up buying Wilson speakers - and it could have been one of several brands - and I understand I am a pretty average customer (although relatively low-end for that dealer).

So my experience as a customer is that they make speakers that look good, sound good, suit our home and are retailed very professionally. People go into shops and buy them, like we did. It's not very complicated.

You do not need to discuss Fletcher-Munson Curve to affect your preference, it is just an underlying condition that may affect preference if people like to listen to music at lower volumes. As to the rest, good design philosophies and marketing do not require the purchaser to consider them as variables, if they are well done, then they will help sell the product unbeknownst to most purchasers.

There are many reasons for choosing an audio product, aesthetics is a major one, especially for those who can afford to make it an important consideration. Professionalism and service is also a major consideratin for many consumers, especially those who can affor to make it an important consideration. You and your wife choosing speakers on the basis of aesthetics, service, quality, perceived value and sound reproduction is not an uncommon strategy (and the meaning of each of those variables varies according to consumers). The differences in choice often are affected by how consumers hierarchize each of the aforementioned variables.

Further affecting choice are subconcsious factors that lie beyond the threshold of liminality.

So I would not conclude we live in different worlds, we may just have differing views, sense of experience, and sense of higherarchies; however, in the end we may share similar views about audio reproduction and factors affecting purchasing decisions.

 

[MerlinGS]

As much as Amir says he's immune to expectation bias because he listens to so many speakers and has no stake, I just don't buy it. His subconscious brain knows he's comparing a $10,000 speaker against a $2,000 speaker. For totally valid subjective impressions(IMO, Amir's impressions are valid in some sense), the comparison needs to be blind.

The question is which is more likely, that he is affected by the cost of the speakers or its measurements. @amirm has expressed his views that he believes much of the Harman research on speaker designs is of great value. He has never suggested that brands and cost by definition are likely to imply a good product. He has given poor reviews to expensive products and poor reviews to products whose brand he generally seems to respect. If I had to wager, I would bet that measurements, perceived value, heritage (engineer associated with design), and aesthetics would have more of a subconscious effect on his experience than the price of a product.

 

[Spkrdctr]

come on, man. why to use such offensive approach? it is rude((

Because it is true?

 

[Spkrdctr]

But we all are different and have different preferences.... And we probably think what we would buy if we had 10k to spent.
I wouldnt spent it on hifi gear...

Yup. Hookers and blow. Oh wait, wrong forum........

 

[MrHifiTunes]

1) The core of the messages is based on irony.
2) Commentators explaining their own position and idea, even with sentences and text directed toward others, commentators are expressing themselves. You read and get the idea about commentator opinion on the speaker.

Well to me its not very respectful to towards those people. I dont get the irony of it...is more bashing around without adding anything constructively.

I see difference between

and

From your comment I got an impression of undervaluing. I would prefer phrase "filled with opinions" rather than "filled with people", making them close to "uninformed crowd" than to "thoughtful individuals".
Let's assume it is just my language barrier. Sorry for excessive attention on little things.

Sometimes it's not always evident to express yourself in a different language.
So let just put it behind us...after all it's just a hobby and not something world treading.

 

[Crosstalk]

As I sit here with my wife listening to a record (Ryo Fukui Live in New York) through a pair of Wilson speakers, I wonder if we live on the same audio planet.

Last December we went to the audio store to buy speakers because my wife hated the good-sounding wooden boxes in our living room, and the audio was about to move to another room, not yet built. The discussion was around the size of the room, the colour scheme, the type of music we like, the listening level we prefer, delivery times. Things we did NOT discuss were Fletcher-Munson, frequency response, dispersion, or anything technical. We did NOT discuss brands, we did NOT discuss design philosophies, we did NOT discuss marketing, we did NOT even discuss price. We had some speakers for a home trial, another brand that the dealer thought I would like but didn't, and the Wilson we listened to in the store. For most of that visit my wife was next door buying a dress, but she sat down and listened to some music of her choice - for about 10 minutes. So we bought the speakers and went to lunch - Japanese fusion. The dealer came round a few days later with the speakers and took the old ones away.

I really know nothing about Wilson other than there are from western USA somewhere, Utah I think. I had heard their speakers before, so was pleased my wife liked them.

Speaking to my dealer, this is a fairly normal sales experience. When I've been to the store, usually for dealer demonstrations, it is often couples. We have spent all afternoon at home listening to music and reading.

This may not be how you choose speakers, but it is how we ended up buying Wilson speakers - and it could have been one of several brands - and I understand I am a pretty average customer (although relatively low-end for that dealer).

So my experience as a customer is that they make speakers that look good, sound good, suit our home and are retailed very professionally. People go into shops and buy them, like we did. It's not very complicated.

that’s what people do before audioscience. Now we all know where we did wrong. I would prefer a kef r3 over any of those boutique speakers now because I know it or a revel outperforms is enough for the state of the art performance. Nobody is going to steal my money anymore

 

[DWI]

that’s what people do before audioscience. Now we all know where we did wrong. I would prefer a kef r3 over any of those boutique speakers now because I know it or a revel outperforms is enough for the state of the art performance. Nobody is going to steal my money anymore

Audioscience was well known to the Ancient Greeks, it wasn't invented on the internet. Some people can accept that other people have entirely different criteria to their own, others decide their criteria are right and everyone else is completely wrong. Some people really struggle with the idea that for other people money is not an issue and really are not interested what something costs.

 

[DWI]

You do not need to discuss Fletcher-Munson Curve to affect your preference, it is just an underlying condition that may affect preference if people like to listen to music at lower volumes. As to the rest, good design philosophies and marketing do not require the purchaser to consider them as variables, if they are well done, then they will help sell the product unbeknownst to most purchasers.

There are many reasons for choosing an audio product, aesthetics is a major one, especially for those who can afford to make it an important consideration. Professionalism and service is also a major consideratin for many consumers, especially those who can affor to make it an important consideration. You and your wife choosing speakers on the basis of aesthetics, service, quality, perceived value and sound reproduction is not an uncommon strategy (and the meaning of each of those variables varies according to consumers). The differences in choice often are affected by how consumers hierarchize each of the aforementioned variables.

Further affecting choice are subconcsious factors that lie beyond the threshold of liminality.

So I would not conclude we live in different worlds, we may just have differing views, sense of experience, and sense of higherarchies; however, in the end we may share similar views about audio reproduction and factors affecting purchasing decisions.

Excellently said. I do know what the Fletcher-Munson Curve is and that it is now called something else! It is very important to me, because I enjoy listening at low levels. The best speaker I've owned for that were Quad ESL63, which have all sorts of other issues, most of which are irrelevant for what ESL were designed to do, basically favouring classical and jazz with unparalleled clarity.

The last pair of speakers I was actually unhappy with was because the sound fell apart quite badly at low levels. I've not made that mistake again. The Wilson I have are superb at low levels, and with classical and jazz, which is most of my diet. I listen to other things, but almost no rock music.

You don't actually need to know about the Fletcher-Munson Curve. If you like listening at low volume, just have a demonstration at an audio dealer or at home at low volume and see what the music sounds like.

 

[Crosstalk]

Audioscience was well known to the Ancient Greeks, it wasn't invented on the internet. Some people can accept that other people have entirely different criteria to their own, others decide their criteria are right and everyone else is completely wrong. Some people really struggle with the idea that for other people money is not an issue and really are not interested what something costs.

It’s not about money here. You can buy anything you can afford. But I was only saying that, that Ferrari you think you bought had only a broken Peugeot engine inside.

 

[heflys20]

Some people really struggle with the idea that for other people money is not an issue and really are not interested what something costs.

I'm just trying to comprehend why anyone would buy these speakers for 10k, limitless funds or not. I have to assume they don't care about actual measured performance or auditioning speakers in their listening environment (should be no trouble for someone with unlimited funds). I have to assume looks, dealer recommendation and word of mouth trump sound quality. They're probably also the type to invest in $3000 cables and $10,000 amps; so who am to judge? It's their money.

 

[pablolie]

If I pay for audio jewelry, I want it to have great engineering. And I want it to sound satisfyingly well. If I can't really honestly tell a difference to what I have, what is the point? I *have* returned $11k bookshelf speakers because they didn't quite sound balanced enough to me, I have had very good equipment for the last 30 years of my life and can hear irregularities. Whether I could in this case I have no idea, I haven't auditioned them, but if someone as experienced as our trusted tester here could be swayed in some way, who am I to say I couldn't?

That said, I think it's time we fundamentally reconsider some aspects of testing for both amps and speakers:

(1) With speakers, please mercifully stop declaring full 20Hz to 20kHz full range the magic ideal. We all know that bass is problematic to set up. To integrate it in a full speaker may cause more problems in a real room than we admit. In my own life, since I moved away from a really large listening rooms, I am a firm believer that the combo of bookshelf speakers, a sub (if I had a larger room I'd go for 2) and an amplification system that allows me to set a cutoff frequency to suit the room and speakers is simply superior to big towers. Easier to set up ideally, and it is my conviction bookshelf speakers beat towers in staging every time unless you have a huge room.

(2) With amplification, similar stuff. The "ideal" amp is still thought to need huge wattage - especially in order to drive the low Hz in full range speakers at discussed above. But - if you drive the lower Hz with an active sub and your amp -powering bookshelves that have been offloaded- only needs to drive stuff 70-80hZ and above, requirements change dramatically.

(3) And yeah, stuff like Dirac is powerful. I must also say in my room (cathedral ceilings, bookshelf speakers off the wall and corners) the only thing Dirac asked me to do was basically optimize the crossover frequency and the sub volume. The trick there it's that of course some recording distort things based on how they got engineered - we'll never get beyond that unless there's a single recording standard, which there will never be.

In a nutshell, I think the testing procedures, benchmarks and expectations have not caught up with our new audio reality and the tools we have at our disposal to optimize sound delivery without looking at monolithic full range stuff.