Wilson Audio TuneTot Review (high-end bookshelf speaker)

[KxDx]

Honestly, given how sturdy the cabinet is, and the drivers they use, I don't see a problem with the $10,000 price tag. At 5x markup, it actually seems somewhat fair. I think it would be difficult for a new company to come in and design/produce a similarly great enclosure, with those drivers, and still turn a profit. Also have to consider the cost of the R&D. Good engineers are expensive, and from what I understand, Wilson pays their engineers extremely well, which is why much of the staff has been there 10+ years.

The bigger issue to me is the performance, namely no bass, FR errors, and directivity errors. The distortion performance is decent, but not great.

Keep in mind that by "performance" I'm simply talking objective performance. I've never heard these, and obviously they sounded great to the individual reviewer here. It's possible that Wilson has R&D that supersedes the work of Toole/Olive. Who knows? I think we need a proper blind test to answer.

No one's even accounting for intangibles. The labor cost to form and assemble those cabinets will be intensive. these are made in the US, not a Chinese factory. The vast majority of manufacturing moved to China for a reason. So paying a fair wage to American workers, warehousing and logistics in the US... all that has to be factored in as well before you even get to marketing and profit margin. But it's more than just the cost of materials.

Someone could easily DIY a much better speaker for many thousands less, but they aren't paying themselves and they aren't buying / leasing facilities and equipment for their DIY.

 

[DSJR]

KJ went bust about 10 years ago for reasons I cannot explain (I was involved professionally), but it is a much better business under the new ownership. I went in there a few years ago and there was a massive pile of boxes piled up at the door, literally to the ceiling. I was told someone came in and bought a complete high-end system (presumably several hundred thousand £'s) in an hour, paid on the spot and gave a shipping address. I have no difficulty understanding audio as a consumer product that appeals to all price points for all sorts of reasons. You see any number of £100,000+ cars driving past all the time, or at least you do in London, so why not spend that money on audio? Or jewellery? Or a painting? Or anything really.

Maybe best for a PM, but I did two stints, 75 to 77 part time there, 77 to end 81 full time at the original Wigmore St location (I believe the facade was retained but the building above and behind was razed and rebuilt), then three months in 1998 under the then new owners, before transferring to one of the outlying stores they owned. Now the new owners do seem to attract a different kind of extremely wealthy customer and being a lot older and more timid now, I'm not sure I could deal with them (I thought nothing of happily dealing with titled gentry back then, but 'new rich' attitudes scare me to death (I discovered the hard way when I went to an outlying town how arrogant some are)).

 

[Dialectic]

Maybe best for a PM, but I did two stints, 75 to 77 part time there, 77 to end 81 full time at the original Wigmore St location (I believe the facade was retained but the building above and behind was razed and rebuilt), then three months in 1998 under the then new owners, before transferring to one of the outlying stores they owned. Now the new owners do seem to attract a different kind of extremely wealthy customer and being alot older and more timid now, I'm not sure I could deal with them (I thought nothing of happily dealing with titled gentry back then, but 'new rich' attitudes scare me to death (I discovered the hard way when I went to an outlying town how arrogant some are).

When you said 45 years ago, I thought you were exaggerating! Incredible that it has been in business for so long.

 

[pablolie]

As I said before, add the TuneTots to a Topping E50 / L50 / PA5 stack and you have a killer desktop system for only $11k. What's not to love?

Doesn't seem a "killer system" given the challenges in setup.

 

[pablolie]

No one's even accounting for intangibles. The labor cost to form and assemble those cabinets will be intensive. these are made in the US, not a Chinese factory. The vast majority of manufacturing moved to China for a reason. So paying a fair wage to American workers, warehousing and logistics in the US... ...

The Chinese aren't stupid. They don't compete just on cost these days, they own most of manufacturing because others -first and foremost the USA- totally gave up the know-how to create flexible, highly programmable Industry 4.0 manufacturing environments. It's really not the fact workers in China just make 5% of US workers. That hasn't been the case in forever provided it ever was. The US can't compete in manufacturing because it gave up the expertise in many fields thereof (not all).
And the "Made in the US" mantra cannot change the fact these were poorly engineered and are silly in their high end pretense given how they measure. I did listen to 100k+ speakers by this brand before in a friend's place that scored it big in a Slicon Valley IPO. I was not impressed with the sound although I'll admit they were potentially poorly set up and they were played way too loud.

 

[Rotiv]

Who is the buyer for these loudspeakers?
Amir's review answers the question.
If at an audio store a customer is interested in loudspeakers and the seller demonstrates the Revels and Wilsons, surely the Wilsons seem more interesting, and of course the price is not deceiving
After some time living with the speakers, you will notice small defects, maybe some new resolution cables could solve...or new amps....or new source....and so the circle begins.
I believe amir "rushed" into is analysis.

 

[pablolie]

Who is the buyer for these loudspeakers?
Amir's review answers the question.
If at an audio store a customer is interested in loudspeakers and the seller demonstrates the Revels and Wilsons, surely the Wilsons seem more interesting, and of course the price is not deceiving
After some time living with the speakers, you will notice small defects, maybe some new resolution cables could solve...or new amps....or new source....and so the circle begins.
I believe amir "rushed" into is analysis.

What bugs me some is the brand recognition stuff that goes on. I am not sure how it happened, but Wilson Audio is a Stereophile fav along with others. While other brands that make really stellar bookshelves (which these days are my preference, I admit) like Gauder in Germany or TAD in Japan never get tested or promotion in the US despite their engineering merits.There are many others of course.
Another thing I would like to point out is that cabinet resonances are always and invariably labeled as horrible flaws in reviews that provide measurements (and I always appreciate measurements btw). Then again, isn't a Stradivarius special *because* of its resonance? I get the fact that, to truthfully present the sound of a Stradivarius, you want a stellar recording and a highly accurate system. But what is someone prefers a somewhat flawed and resonant system that flatters poorer recordings they like and extracts better entertainment out of those?
In the end, I just shrug my shoulders and let people enjoy their choices. Maybe a Stradivarius or an Ibanez sounds so special *because* they have harmonics that are somewhat out of the perfect spec that sounds... sterile. Listening to music is not an exact science.
Now I am confusing myself because I rationally prefer "well measuring" equipment and a neutral presentation, but can't get myself to condemn stuff that measures poorly yet seems to sound sweet - which I have regularly encountered. I can't imagine Devore speakers driven by a tube amp ever measuring well, but a friend of mine owns that and good heavens does it ever sound amazing with classical or many jazz albums.
That said, there are clearly audio companies in the US you can't quite afford to upset - I think Amir would have murdered these if he'd treated them like the other equipment he reviews, but he was uncharacteristically careful in his conclusion, that's just my interpretation. I am and shall stay a faithful supporter of this site, so I hope no one sees it as an attack to it. It's not. It just reflects the same duality I alluded to above: stuff may sometimes measure like crap, yet sound amazingly entertaining in the real world...

 

[Zensō]

No one's even accounting for intangibles. The labor cost to form and assemble those cabinets will be intensive. these are made in the US, not a Chinese factory. The vast majority of manufacturing moved to China for a reason. So paying a fair wage to American workers, warehousing and logistics in the US... all that has to be factored in as well before you even get to marketing and profit margin. But it's more than just the cost of materials.

Someone could easily DIY a much better speaker for many thousands less, but they aren't paying themselves and they aren't buying / leasing facilities and equipment for their DIY.

Schiit competes very well on price using US parts and labor. I own some studio monitors made in Germany, with German parts and labor, that run circles around these for less than 20% of the price. There’s really no justification for this price other than wealth signaling.

 

[JRS]

Is Wilson playing a joke on us?
I must have missed the memo where this level of performance was acceptable for this kind of money.
A US$110/pair speaker, Neumi BS5, crushes this speaker!

Spoiler

Save your money...Buy the Genelec 8361A's instead.

Save even more money and build some Directiva 1's which stomp these in every respect. Surprised Amir held his tongue on that point.

 

[JRS]

EQ for Wilson Audio TuneTot computed from ASR data
Preference Score 2.6 with EQ 4.4
Generated from http://github.com/pierreaubert/spinorama/generate_peqs.py v0.14
Dated: 2021-12-21-07:19:13


Preamp: -5.9 dB


Filter 1: ON PK Fc 396 Hz Gain +3.64 dB Q 0.05
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 126 Hz Gain -8.60 dB Q 2.93
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 13717 Hz Gain +4.50 dB Q 0.57
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 2458 Hz Gain +2.49 dB Q 4.00
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 823 Hz Gain -1.92 dB Q 3.41
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 1449 Hz Gain +1.40 dB Q 3.74
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 314 Hz Gain +1.20 dB Q 3.38
Filter 8: ON PK Fc 3834 Hz Gain -0.66 dB Q 0.92
Filter 9: ON PK Fc 113 Hz Gain -1.19 dB Q 3.99
[/CODE]

More bands than a transistor radio.

 

[pablolie]

Schiit competes very well on price using US parts and labor. I own some studio monitors made in Germany, with German parts and labor, that run circles around these for less than 20% of the price. There’s really no justification for this price other than wealth signaling.

They indeed do, but their recipe for success is entirely different, isn't it? They clearly are tongue-in-cheek and cater to many audiences with products that are smartly tailored to trends. An the products look good but they are definitely not trying to be audio jewelry.

 

[JRS]

What bugs me some is the brand recognition stuff that goes on. I am not sure how it happened, but Wilson Audio is a Stereophile fav along with others. While other brands that make really stellar bookshelves (which these days are my preference, I admit) like Gauder in Germany or TAD in Japan never get tested or promotion in the US despite their engineering merits.There are many others of course.
Another thing I would like to point out is that cabinet resonances are always and invariably labeled as horrible flaws in reviews that provide measurements (and I always appreciate measurements btw). Then again, isn't a Stradivarius special *because* of its resonance? I get the fact that, to truthfully present the sound of a Stradivarius, you want a stellar recording and a highly accurate system. But what is someone prefers a somewhat flawed and resonant system that flatters poorer recordings they like and extracts better entertainment out of those?
In the end, I just shrug my shoulders and let people enjoy their choices. Maybe a Stradivarius or an Ibanez sounds so special *because* they have harmonics that are somewhat out of the perfect spec that sounds... sterile. Listening to music is not an exact science.
Now I am confusing myself because I rationally prefer "well measuring" equipment and a neutral presentation, but can't get myself to condemn stuff that measures poorly yet seems to sound sweet - which I have regularly encountered. I can't imagine Devore speakers driven by a tube amp ever measuring well, but a friend of mine owns that and good heavens does it ever sound amazing with classical or many jazz albums.
That said, there are clearly audio companies in the US you can't quite afford to upset - I think Amir would have murdered these if he'd treated them like the other equipment he reviews, but he was uncharacteristically careful in his conclusion, that's just my interpretation. I am and shall stay a faithful supporter of this site, so I hope no one sees it as an attack to it. It's not. It just reflects the same duality I alluded to above: stuff may sometimes measure like crap, yet sound amazingly entertaining in the real world...

Entertaining point from I believe Toole's book: when a group of "blindfolded" classical musicians were played a number of high end violins, most preferred the newer ones and the strads failed to stand out in any respect. There is that sighted bias thingy again.

*I may be exaggerating a bit, but too lazy to look for the source. It's close to the actual findings. I am not sure that the Strads were even identified as such by most.

 

[Zensō]

They indeed do, but their recipe for success is entirely different, isn't it? They clearly are tongue-in-cheek and cater to many audiences with products that are smartly tailored to trends. An the products look good but they are definitely not trying to be audio jewelry.

True. But the person I was responding to was suggesting that these speakers are expensive solely due to production in the US, which isn’t a valid argument in my opinion.

 

[pablolie]

True. But the person I was responding to was suggesting that these speakers are expensive solely due to production in the US, which isn’t a valid argument in my opinion.

Thoroughly agreed upon. I also replied to that. Producing in the USA isn't dramatically more expensive these days. But it's much harder to find a reliable, quality partner. And doing it inhouse -that's the German and Japanese high quality model, and Shiit somewhat does that. They are very smart, IMO.

 

[Rotiv]

I am and shall stay a faithful supporter of this site, so I hope no one sees it as an attack to it. It's not. It just reflects the same duality I alluded to above

Was it a politically correct analysis? I think not. Hope not

 

[pablolie]

Ir que

Was it a politically correct analysis? I think not. Hope not

How was it politically incorrect? I am willing to offer an immediate apology if it was. I *am* a supporter of this site and vote for it with my wallet. I can however be free to somewhat question why some products get more gentle treatment than others in the audio industry. I invite disagreement. I don't think offering a personal opinion in an online forum is "politically incorrect" when it merely refers to personal analysis of audio equipment.

I never implied the review was in any way compromised by the manufacturer's involvement. I just said that WA seem to be a sacred cow in in the US audiophile world, and it seems the subjective listening experience seems for some reason to soften the low the analytical measurements would otherwise seem to merit.

 

[Rotiv]

How was it politically incorrect? I am willing to offer an immediate apology if it was. I *am* a supporter of this site and vote for it with my wallet. I can however be free to somewhat question why some products get more gentle treatment than others in the audio industry. I invite disagreement. I don't think offering a speculative opinion in an online forum is "politically incorrect".

"Was it a politically correct analysis? I think not. Hope not" Refers to Amir review not your comments

 

[sarumbear]

"Was it a politically correct analysis? I think not. Hope not" Refers to Amir review not your comments

The last thing we need is PC arguments at ASR. Please stop this.

 

[Rotiv]

I think I was misinterpreted, but I apologize for what happened

 

[pablolie]

"Was it a politically correct analysis? I think not. Hope not" Refers to Amir review not your comments

I think Amir's analysis is always structured the same way: (1) Key measurements that are entirely neutral and based on quantitative analysis. (2) A more qualitative and personal analysis at the end.
And he lets *us* debate this freely, which I appreciate and shows that after a thorough presentation he invites debate. I don't think he's PC ever, but he simply communicates his overall experience with the product.
And as I said, I can totally understand why someone would think the measurements are "meh" but the listening experience for some reason isn't.