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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

jhaider

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Best, honest, logical, direct, grab the bull by the horn answer.

"Do you have any grounds to imagine otherwise?" <- Yes. My experience with two int amps on the same speaker, one I eventually returned because it sound "warm" (I know some audiophool jargon), the low mids and the upper bass seemed to be accentuated and the detail was a bit lacking. Say by side A/B, not blind but same volume level measured by a DBA meter. One will argue that I might have been blinded by bias, it could very well be true, no arguments there.

That's possible, but more importantly it's out of the scope of your original hypothetical: "If two amps measured exactly alike, but they are from different manufacturers with different design, will they sound exactly alike?" Also when we're talking about differences on this level matching really needs to be voltage-at-terminals, not dB using a handheld meter somewhere.

Here, we have no idea how the two boxes measure or even if there are competent third party measurements for both or either. We also know nothing about the load characteristics of the loudspeaker.

That notwithstanding, there are some obvious reasons two electronics boxes could sound different. Signal processing, be it intentional or inadvertent, is the usual reason.

One example of the intentional signal processing is PS Audio Sprout, with its big bass hump.

Two examples of the inadvertent signal processing is high source impedance, or substandard filter design in a Class D unit. Such amps can have frequency response differences driving speakers that don't show up when they're being tested driving resistor banks. Stereophile and Soundstage to "simulated speaker" loads to test for this issue. Amir did at one point too, I think. Other examples are channel imbalances or other such things.
 

flyzipper

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I recall hearing a quote from an Olympic coach that went something like, "gold medals don't come with the qualifying statement result not backed by science", which was in reference to successful athletes doing things in the training room that lead to positive benefits on the field, and usually it isn't until much later that scientific studies come along to show why their training methods worked.

This feels like a parallel to what's going on with objective versus subjective debate in audio. We can subjectively pick good speakers among a group in a specific double-blind test, while the objective measurements are there to explain why a particular speaker was preferred (or not).

Once the why is known, however, those parameters become valuable to implement and test objectively.

Also, knowing the why doesn't automatically make it happen -- doing is required.
 
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MaxBuck

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I don't really know diddley squat about the technical stuff, but it seems to me that the following might be true:
  • For robust amplifiers, the reactive impedance elements of the receiving transducers (speakers, and sometimes headphones) will have essentially no effect on audio output
  • Some amplifiers aren't so robust, and therefore reactive impedance might have a significant influence on audio as heard by listeners
  • "Snake-oil" crap might in some cases counteract some of the reactive impedance influences to make the system sound better if the amp is sensitive to reactive impedance elements
  • Typical measurements may not be sufficient to fully characterize the robustness of an amplifier relative to downstream impedance peculiarities
Any thoughts? My own (NAD C298) power amp seems very robust from what I can tell, being based on the Purifi Eigentakt. So the sound I'm getting is, frankly, sublime to my ears. But I can see how other, more impedance-sensitive amplifiers might behave differently, and therefore match up more or less well with a specific speaker.
 

Alice of Old Vincennes

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For the same reason GM sells Cadillacs; people buy them. In fact, people ask for them.

Many people are uncomfortable with the realization that businesses will not turn down an opportunity to make money. And they don't have to be immoral or misleading to do so. I don't like Cadillacs. My neighbor doesn't like Cadillacs. But someone out there sure likes Cadillacs. More power to them. Jim
I like Cadillac CT 4. Sedans are more comfortable and ride smoother than crossovers. Cheaper because of lack of demand. XTS sucked. No visibility. Also, crossovers are ugly.
 

Blumlein 88

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I like Cadillac CT 4. Sedans are more comfortable and ride smoother than crossovers. Cheaper because of lack of demand. XTS sucked. No visibility. Also, crossovers are ugly.
You cannot see your own SUV when you are driving it. So why does it matter how it looks? Looks real good from the inside. ;)
 

Alice of Old Vincennes

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You cannot see your own SUV when you are driving it. So why does it matter how it looks? Looks real good from the inside. ;)
CT 4 is more comfortable and smoother on road than a $75,000 pickup, crossover or SUV. Marked down to $35,000 because sedans out of style. Perused an Escalade out of curiosity. Simply obscene in price and size.
 
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restorer-john

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CT 4 is more comfortable and smoother on road than a $75,000 pickup, crossover or SUV. Marked down to $35,000 because sedans out of style. Perused an Escalade out of curiosity. Simply obscene in price and size.

Surely the SUV craze is on the way out? It will go full circle back to sedans sooner or later.

We will be buying a sedan and a proper 4WD next time around- so sick of all these SUVs that look the same, handle and ride like trucks and don't really have off-road chops.
 

tmtomh

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Wow, super interesting. Thank you for sharing.

And this is not a gotcha, I promise. But "He doesn't keep detailed logs of the responses because he said they always show random responses." Would have been nice to see the data. But I see no reason to question the truth of this.

Now. . .(again, I promise, this is not a I gotcha), then why the hell do we care about 100 vs 110 SINAD? This Richard Clark experiment just proved it makes no damn difference. I don't need no Benchmark, nor Hypex, a $400 Sony will do.

Why do we care about 110dB vs 100dB SINAD? I think it's a good question, and I think there are several relevant responses:

1. We don't always care about it. In a really well-performing active speaker with no discernible hiss/self-noise, we don't care about the amplifier SINAD at all, at least not directly. In a power amp, most of us don't care much about 110 vs 100 - both are excellent. In a DAC, however, many of us do care about it because upstream components' noise and distortion will be amplified and further distorted by downstream components. @amirm has on this basis suggested that a DAC's SINAD should be roughly 10dB better than a power amp's. And if you stick a preamp in between, you have to figure on that too.

2. SINAD and similar measurements are pretty reliable indicators of quality design and internal layout (though not necessarily physical build quality). Yes, you can play counterproductive games with gain and impedance to get a few extra dBs of SINAD out of your preamp or power amp, but most folks here are not obsessed with getting the one very best measuring device - if they were, all the people here who've spent $500-$1500 on Hypex and Purifi amps would instead have spent $3000 on Benchmark AHB2s. Overall it's not simply 110dB vs 100dB that folks are looking at. It's more like the 98dB SINAD, $699 Hypex amp vs the 79dB, $2000 "audiophile" amp. If an amp has 10dB lower SINAD and costs a lot less and/or has more/better features, them maybe you get the lower SINAD one - but if you are playing even CD-quality music, it's not irrational or silly to want equipment whose noise floor can at least match that non-hi-res medium.

3. There is unit-to-unit variation, and so a little extra SINAD can be an insurance policy against your individual unit not measuring quite as well as the one Amir tested.

4. People who believe in objective measurements are still human beings, and sometimes we make irrational or emotional decisions to pay a little extra for better-measuring gear. Other times we pay extra for what we perceive as better build quality. even though we might not actually have any real evidence that the build quality is necessary or will really result in greater longevity. That does not mean measurements aren't useful, valuable, or valid.

Of all these issues, I would say #2 is the most often abused by people who try to criticize the reliance on measurements: the idea that folks here simply chase ridiculously high SINAD is just flat-out inaccurate. It ignores the fact that people also factor in price, build quality, aesthetics/design, features, functionality, and so on - in other words many of the same things that self-identified subjectivists do too.

And I would say #4 is the most misunderstood point: no matter how much you're into measurements, this is still a hobby, it's still about having fun, and we're all human beings who are irrational in some ways. But the fact that we don't always purchase based solely on measurements - and conversely the fact that we sometimes give weight to measured differences that are all beyond the audibility threshold - does not invalidate the science behind measurements, any more than Newton's pursuit of alchemy or interest in Biblical chronology invalidates the mathematical validity of the calculus he co-invented or the utility of Newtonian mechanics.

Oh, and this point actually also connects to your question about why science-based Harman International sells premium gear under the Mark Levinson name. The reason is capitalism: Levinson existed long before Harman acquired it, and it makes money. The fact that Harman sells Levinson gear does not mean Harman secretly doesn't really believe in measurements.
 

escksu

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You won't find two amplifiers that measure exactly the same from two different manufacturers, often not even the same model, from the same manufacturer...

Yes l, fully agreed. No 2 amps will measure the same, even if they are same model from same manufacturer. Even the same components differs slightly in measurements, thats why matching is so important.

This goes beyond audio too. Even in precision engineering.
 

DanielT

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Great thread. Smart thought of you Amir when you created it.:D

The thing about Hifi is that in the end it's about music, about experiences, subjective experiences. That is the case, but that there are those who imagined that in order to absorb these experiences, the technology that conveys the music must in some way be subjectively created. So that's what I think it's about for the subjectivists. Mixing apples with pears. Yes, experiences of music ARE subjective. The objectivists do not say otherwise. Technical solutions for sound reproduction, on the other hand, ARE just that, technical and can thus be assessed and evaluated objectively.:)

For example. It is possible to evaluate an amp technically, objectively. The same amplifier can have a loudness button. Some like that feature, others do not. Even one and the same person can sometimes feel like pushing it in when listening to music at low volume music. It is subjective and depending on what emotional state, mood you are in at the moment. :)
 
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MakeMineVinyl

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Let's ask another (related) question:

As long as the manufacturer doesn't misrepresent it as being something that it's not, is there ever a legitimate reason for an amplifier deliberately designed to be not neutral and not accurate? An effects box, in essence. Jim
The problem is that many DO misrepresent amplifiers which are not designed for absolute accuracy as something they are not.
 

Blumlein 88

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Surely the SUV craze is on the way out? It will go full circle back to sedans sooner or later.

We will be buying a sedan and a proper 4WD next time around- so sick of all these SUVs that look the same, handle and ride like trucks and don't really have off-road chops.
Not necessarily against the idea, but I don't think it is going that way anytime soon. SUV's are more human-ized in sizing and placement. The owner and passenger are catered to rather than the other way around. It just feels different and superior to the feel even in a great sedan.
 

restorer-john

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I don't believe ASR members object as strenuously to inaccurate amps and speakers as they do to misrepresentation.

I also believe that many new members coming here fail to understand that. Jim

That is perfectly true.

I have no problem with people buying whatever they want, be it accurate, high performance, high cost or the complete opposite, as long as they are not being deceived or duped by inflated specifications or claims that cannot be substantiated. That's where ASR can make a difference.
 

gsp1971

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I have a scale for how much measurements matter for each category of products:

DACs: 100%
Amplifiers (headphone and speaker): 80 to 90% due to variability of available power. Hard to internalize how much power is available/enough without listening tests.
Speakers: 70 to 80%
Headphones: 50 to 80% (measurements too variable)

This is why you see me do listening tests for the last two categories and half of second (headphone amps).
Hi @amirm , I applaud the honorable intentions of the thread, but I think this needs to be expanded further and be associated with measurements more, if it is not to end up as yet another thread full of disagreement and arguing, eventually ending up being blocked by the admins.

There are many knowledgeable members here who can help with this.

For example, you say DACs: 100%,
In my mind this means no listening is really required because if a DAC measures well and does what it is supposed to do well, then it does not have a 'sound' of its own than can affect the overall performance of an audio system.
In that sense, any DAC measuring well will do, correct?
But if you want to be really transparent, you should define a benchmark SINAD above which any improvements are not audible.
For instance, any DAC above xx SINAD is good enough for all practical purposes. The xx number should not be borderline, but it should be beyond doubt - in other words, if anything above 70 SINAD (random example) is inaudible, but this can vary 2-3dB among humans (i.e. if they are trained, etc.) then let's set the threshold at 80dB, which is a number beyond any doubt.

For amps, setting a threshold can be a little more complicated, as other things come into play such as power, clipping, what speakers will be driven, etc, but I believe some thresholds can be defined.

Thx a lot,
George
 

charleski

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In a power amp, most of us don't care much about 110 vs 100 - both are excellent. In a DAC, however, many of us do care about it because upstream components' noise and distortion will be amplified and further distorted by downstream components.
We also need plenty of headroom for DSP. My digital files are attenuated both by ReplayGain (which can easily reach 10dB or more) and 4dB of preamp gain for the EQ. If I want to be sure I’m getting proper reproduction of the full 96dB range then I need a 110dB DAC at least.
 

abdo123

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What is your definition of "broken"? Also, do you really only mean power limits - what about other areas of concern (input and output connection parameters, gain, etc) that will also cause an amp to deviate from optimum performance?
Broken for me is the amplifier producing an objectionable sound.
 

DanielT

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Maybe the parameters of the Richard Clark amp challenge can fill in some blanks. He required amps being compared to have the same power without clipping, no EQ or other response differences, 30 db channel seperation over the whole audio band, and no more than 2% THD. You had to get 12 of 12 correct twice to collect the money. Yet over more than 2000 attempts no one even got enough right to meet a p-value of 5% which would require 17 out of 24. These tests are all done with music.
Aha, very interesting. Thanks for the link.:)

Then it's about aiming for enough headroom. Regarding effect on the amplifier, so it is not driven so easily into clipping in.

Incidentally, the question of whether the effect is sufficient (see for example the thread about the amplifier from Topping PA5) and when distortion (in general) becomes audible seems to be the most common questions on this forum. Quite reasonable, I think.
 

atsmusic

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I honestly don't think there are many musicians on this site. I say this because a lot of musicians like things that color the sound. Like there are a ton of plugins and hardware that is made just for this very reason. Like you would run a clean signal through it to color the sound. A lot of people also like something like this in their hifi setup. People here seem to think it is wrong to like such things. I think that is very narrow minded myself.
 

DanielT

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I honestly don't think there are many musicians on this site. I say this because a lot of musicians like things that color the sound. Like there are a ton of plugins and hardware that is made just for this very reason. Like you would run a clean signal through it to color the sound. A lot of people also like something like this in their hifi setup. People here seem to think it is wrong to like such things. I think that is very narrow minded myself.
Not all musicians:

 
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