Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[abdo123]

Honest answer. Love it!

Do you think if two amps that measures exactly alike but from different manufacturers with different design will sound exactly alike?

they don't have to measure the same, the just have to be equally loud, not broken, and neither of the two is driven to their power limits.

Unless tube amps or some other weird designs are involved like the Nelson Pass ACA.

 

[Digby]

I have a scale for how much measurements matter for each category of products:

DACs: 100%
Amplifiers (headphone and speaker): 80 to 90% due to variability of available power. Hard to internalize how much power is available/enough without listening tests.
Speakers: 70 to 80%
Headphones: 50 to 80% (measurements too variable)

This is why you see me do listening tests for the last two categories and half of second (headphone amps).

I understand your reply is off the cuff and not to be taken ultra literally, so don't think of this as some kind of attempt at a gotcha, but with speakers and headphones what would you say makes up the 20-50% which isn't shown in the measurements?

Is the 20-50% things that could potentially be measured, but it is too time consuming/difficult to do so or are they things beyond measurement.

 

[dc655321]

I am a trained EE

Training, but clearly no understanding of the material or its application.

 

[gallantus]

Training, but clearly no understanding of the material or its application.

When one is timid to engage in the substance of the debate and resort to insults. . .

Please share with us your background and your expertise of understanding in the material and it's application and engage in the discussion in a civil and intellectual manner.

 

[Deleted member 21219]

Normally, the "man on the street" can't check specs, yet many times specs are what they use as a guideline to purchasing. In my opinion, the most obvious benefit to ASR (among many) is to ferret out units that don't live up to their advertised specs. And I don't mean ones that are a little bit off, I mean ones that are WAY off.
The work that @amirm does is invaluable. I don't care who wants to argue or what they want to say. It's a double-check for competence, it's a double-check for commercial honesty, and it's a reliable and consistent point of reference.

And I say that knowing full well that the trolls can sometimes get you down. But ....... hey, that's life. Jim

 

[Galliardist]

they don't have to measure the same, the just have to be equally loud, not broken, and neither of the two is driven to their power limits.

Unless tube amps or some other weird designs are involved like the Nelson Pass ACA.

What is your definition of "broken"? Also, do you really only mean power limits - what about other areas of concern (input and output connection parameters, gain, etc) that will also cause an amp to deviate from optimum performance?

 

[Chazz6]

What about the holistic or system argument: the result at your ears depends crucially on how interactions between components in the signal path, as well as on the room. The final result can easily depend more on the system as a whole, or on the selection of the components, than on a measured variable of one of the components.

A system therefore needs a matrix of measurements leading to a final scalar or vector. Of course, putting even a small selection of components for each cell in the matrix would quickly multiply to an impossible workload.

 

[restorer-john]

What is your definition of "broken"? Also, do you really only mean power limits - what about other areas of concern (input and output connection parameters, gain, etc) that will also cause an amp to deviate from optimum performance?

Their definition of 'broken' is non-specific, it is adjusted on the fly to support their argument and essentially means nothing. A cop out, catch-all to support a group-think position. Companion word to 'transparent', should be used multiple times in posts to promote an air of superiority.

 

[gallantus]

Normally, the "man on the street" can't check specs, yet many times specs are what they use as a guideline to purchasing. In my opinion, the most obvious benefit to ASR (among many) is to ferret out units that don't live up to their advertised specs. And I don't mean ones that are a little bit off, I mean ones that are WAY off.
The work that @amirm does is invaluable. I don't care who wants to argue or what they want to say. It's a double-check for competence, it's a double-check for commercial honesty, and it's a reliable and consistent point of reference.

And I say that knowing full well that the trolls can sometimes get you down. But ....... hey, that's life. Jim

Agreed with everything you said, except your labeling of members as trolls for questioning and challenging an establishment.

And I take it as you are referring to me as the troll. Provided one is asking honest questions with no ill will, shouldn't you embrace these questions and answer/debate them head on? I would imagine that would only strengthen your mission and stance. Instead of calling people troll to shut them up because they raise their hand as they scratch their head.

 

[sarumbear]

Training, but clearly no understanding of the material or its application.

@amirm can we please have an unlike button for posts like this, on this thread especially?

 

[Momotaro]

Strange thread. The headline has nothing to do with the content of the OP? Scratch that, see below ...

 

[JSmith]

except your labeling of members as trolls for questioning and challenging an establishment.

It's not what's said, it's the way it's said... a stark difference between a genuine question and a troll question designed to push certain ASR buttons, the issue is the latter in review threads.


JSmith

 

[Deleted member 21219]

And I take it as you are referring to me as the troll.

No. Neither you nor the other people in this thread were on my radar. I was speaking about a general position, and commenting on a value system.

Jim

 

[sarumbear]

It's not what's said, it's the way it's said... a stark difference between a genuine question and a troll question designed to push certain ASR buttons, the issue is the latter in review threads.

On an international forum “the way” something is said is pretty difficult to judge, let alone it is stark. It’s better to assume they haven’t been trolling until a few posts that proves otherwise.

 

[Momotaro]

 

[restorer-john]

Is the concept of "sound signature" BS?

No. It isn't BS, but you'll get a bunch of people here who will fiercely argue with that position. The loudest noises will be heard from the people who have never performed a level matched, instant A/B comparison at elevated levels.

 

[abdo123]

Their definition of 'broken' is non-specific, it is adjusted on the fly to support their argument and essentially means nothing. A cop out, catch-all to support a group-think position. Companion word to 'transparent', should be used multiple times in posts to promote an air of superiority.

This rudeness was really uncalled for by the way.

 

[JP]

My mother-in-law might possibly have disagreed with that assessment, but that's a story for another time. Jim

I didn’t know my wife had a sister.

 

[jhaider]

But is measurement for electronics the end all be all to guage sound quality?

That’s a straw man. Features such as equalization, bass management, automated room correction, loudness compensation don’t show up in the standard measurement battery but they matter more than 90% of the measured stuff.

If two amps measured exactly alike, but they are from different manufacturers with different design, will they sound exactly alike?

Do you have any grounds to imagine otherwise?

Can one buy an amp or DAC, just by looking at the measurements without any audition and know that it will sound like any other amp or DAC only less or more distortion?

Most people shouldn’t buy DACs because that is a simple function often built into other equipment.

If so, why are there so many people not have the Benchmark AHB2 and LA4 and the Topping D90SE combination (budget and use case functionality aside).

Because that would be a basic system that sounds terrible compared to one with some degrees of freedom.

Why does x SINAD, y THD and z SNR matter when your ears likely can't tell the difference once you hit a certain threshold? Is it for bragging rights? A peace of mind?

IMO those results are more disqualifiers than qualifiers.

 

[Freeway]

If for no other reason, measurements point you in the right direction.