Zu Audio - What is Going On?

[Sal1950]

1:30 PM now, time to go poolside.
Later

 

[Blumlein 88]

Good thread but it raises the question
What's worse, snake oil marketing of tone controled, distortion inducing products such as the Zu's.
Or the on going craziness of the worthless products marketed and trumped on sites like WBF and CA. They as a rule have no effect on SQ either for the good or bad but get into delusional believer audiophiles pockets none the less.

There is much good news too.
Well designed, reasonably priced speakers in both passive and active versions from companies like Elac, JBL, HSU, Emotiva, many more. Same goes for electronics and sources. In today's market you can put together incredible sounding systems for the cost of a decent TV and NOT a fricken house.
The sad part is that there is not a media or marketing arm for the above gear or philosophy. The vast majority of whats out there will give occasional lip service to affordable gear but in the main are just more reflections of Stereophiles BS Recommended Components list. I put my discarded copies in the small free library of my community and wonder what some may think when they pick them up and purse the gear listed in the pages.

Fugeddaboudit

Aren't you afraid you might infect someone leaving such material about unsupervised? That's how I started reading TAS.

 

[amirm]

1:30 PM now, time to go poolside.
Later
View attachment 4164

It is 40 degree here.... But beautifully sunny day.

 

[watchnerd]

Aren't you afraid you might infect someone leaving such material about unsupervised? That's how I started reading TAS.

Yeah @Sal1950 is like a placebophile Typhoid Mary -- an immune carrier who infects others.

 

[fas42]

Well so is a PA speaker, and you don't like those.

BTW, the main Zu driver is a modified PA driver...

Also, if by full range you mean 20-20khz coverage, they do a pretty poor job of that.

Well, most PA units don't use drivers in a full range mode - the Zu deliberately does so, and fills in the top and bottom as needed. The bit in the middle is the critical bit, in terms of getting the musical message, so they put their energy there.

YouTube clips of these speakers have some of the worse sound in them, seemingly because the people using them haven't a clue, or they just want an expensive hoon speaker. But there are some that do demonstrate what they are capable of - it's the ol' GIGO thing (Garbage In, ... )

 

[Keith_W]

What is there to get?

A loudspeaker's job is to reproduce sound, not to create its own version.

Just like the job of a watch is to tell time, not to create its own version?

I still own my IWC. It needs to be serviced every 2 years. Every week or so, I compare the time of the IWC to my smartphone, and have to adjust it accordingly. I got rather fed up of this, so the IWC sits on my watch winder and I wear a Swatch instead.

 

[watchnerd]

Just like the job of a watch is to tell time, not to create its own version?

I still own my IWC. It needs to be serviced every 2 years. Every week or so, I compare the time of the IWC to my smartphone, and have to adjust it accordingly. I got rather fed up of this, so the IWC sits on my watch winder and I wear a Swatch instead.

Nope, the job of a mechanical watch is not to tell time. It's to be male jewelry.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Just like the job of a watch is to tell time, not to create its own version?

I still own my IWC. It needs to be serviced every 2 years. Every week or so, I compare the time of the IWC to my smartphone, and have to adjust it accordingly. I got rather fed up of this, so the IWC sits on my watch winder and I wear a Swatch instead.

I used a Seiko electronic watch for about 25 years. It was 3 seconds fast every month. Since we change from daylight savings and back twice a year, I set it 9 seconds slow each time and knew I was always within plus or minus 9 seconds. If I took a minute to think about the month I could even know within a second what the correct time was. A few years back I started with a Citizen Eco-drive. It is 5 seconds fast each month. So I set it 15 seconds slow when time changes. So I wouldn't consider the Seiko jewelry, though the Citizen is a bit being an analog readout watch and a bit fancier. So neither is cheap, neither is in the super expensive category. Both are functional and of high quality. Most of my audio choices rather mirror this.

On the other hand, since retiring I rarely wear a watch and simply look at my phone. Or the clock of the GPS in my vehicle or the time on my computer.

Now on the other hand (despite not being three handed), I was explaining to a niece how you could find true north with an analog watch dial which had the correct time. Handy if you were ever lost. The topic of being lost and not knowing north had come up somehow. Likely never has anyone been as disinterested in something as my niece. BTW, align the hour with the sun, and halfway between 12 and that is north. So at 4 pm the 2 o'clock points to north. Of course if I have my smartphone I would just engage any number of pieces of software and the GPS or the sensor that finds magnetic north. Then again I always liked sundials.

 

[Keith_W]

Nope, the job of a mechanical watch is not to tell time. It's to be male jewelry.

Now you are starting to get the point of high end audio. This is encouraging It isn't necessarily about having the most perfect measurements. Just like that is not the point of your mechanical watch. Or why I stick with fountain pens when everyone else is typing on a keyboard. Watching some of you guys go on about how such-and-such is overpriced because it doesn't measure so well reminds me of those car forums where people say that Ferrari's aren't worth it because their souped-up rice rocket is just as fast. Or some camera forums where people dismiss Leica or Hasselblad as overpriced jewelry with the very same arguments you are using against high end audio. Yes, a Sony A7S2 has much superior high ISO performance, dynamic range, etc. than any Leica you care to name. It can even use Leica lenses. But that too, is missing the point.

Now, bear in mind that I do not necessarily subscribe to that philosophy. I like high end mechanical watches, but I wear a Swatch. I like high end fountain pens, but my daily writer is a Lamy. I like Ferrari's, but I drive a VW. And I like Leica's, but I use a Sony. But I don't go around dismissing them, pouring scorn on them, sneering at them, and being a general asshole about it. This would be a great forum if there was less of that and more talking about audio science.

And once again, for the record - I am not really a fan of Zu's either.

 

[Thomas savage]

Now you are starting to get the point of high end audio. This is encouraging It isn't necessarily about having the most perfect measurements. Just like that is not the point of your mechanical watch. Or why I stick with fountain pens when everyone else is typing on a keyboard. Watching some of you guys go on about how such-and-such is overpriced because it doesn't measure so well reminds me of those car forums where people say that Ferrari's aren't worth it because their souped-up rice rocket is just as fast. Or some camera forums where people dismiss Leica or Hasselblad as overpriced jewelry with the very same arguments you are using against high end audio. Yes, a Sony A7S2 has much superior high ISO performance, dynamic range, etc. than any Leica you care to name. It can even use Leica lenses. But that too, is missing the point.

Now, bear in mind that I do not necessarily subscribe to that philosophy. I like high end mechanical watches, but I wear a Swatch. I like high end fountain pens, but my daily writer is a Lamy. I like Ferrari's, but I drive a VW. And I like Leica's, but I use a Sony. But I don't go around dismissing them, pouring scorn on them, sneering at them, and being a general asshole about it. This would be a great forum if there was less of that and more talking about audio science.

And once again, for the record - I am not really a fan of Zu's either.

Bad analogies galore...but can't argue with wanting more audio science.

This thread started with a honest enough premise, the subject was explored and the natural conclusions were then compared to the 'claims' surrounding the products. Claims highlighted best by Kal..

thats what we are here for Keith, to explore through known science and compare the findings to the claims audio electronics manufacturers make.

Seek the truth in performance.. If you go and race a Ferrari ( a modern one) against your VW you will notice some very real world differences in performance. Some models don't even have a radio and the seats are bloody uncomfortable, but that's weight saving for you.

I don't care about luxury or even audio brands that covert that end of the market, I care about performance claims that rely solely on the ignorance of the customers.. Most audiophiles I know have aspired to better performance, thats why they are audiophiles.

I don't associate with folk who are solely intrested in luxury goods as just looking at them makes my soul hurt.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Now you are starting to get the point of high end audio. This is encouraging It isn't necessarily about having the most perfect measurements. Just like that is not the point of your mechanical watch. Or why I stick with fountain pens when everyone else is typing on a keyboard. Watching some of you guys go on about how such-and-such is overpriced because it doesn't measure so well reminds me of those car forums where people say that Ferrari's aren't worth it because their souped-up rice rocket is just as fast. Or some camera forums where people dismiss Leica or Hasselblad as overpriced jewelry with the very same arguments you are using against high end audio. Yes, a Sony A7S2 has much superior high ISO performance, dynamic range, etc. than any Leica you care to name. It can even use Leica lenses. But that too, is missing the point.

Now, bear in mind that I do not necessarily subscribe to that philosophy. I like high end mechanical watches, but I wear a Swatch. I like high end fountain pens, but my daily writer is a Lamy. I like Ferrari's, but I drive a VW. And I like Leica's, but I use a Sony. But I don't go around dismissing them, pouring scorn on them, sneering at them, and being a general asshole about it. This would be a great forum if there was less of that and more talking about audio science.

And once again, for the record - I am not really a fan of Zu's either.

You know Ferrari aren't real cars. Corvettes are. Real high performance cars driven as real transportation.

I am reminded of the McLaren with more miles than any other. Owned by one of the Barrett Jackson fellows. It has 18 thousand miles. Most of that on a private road. Those aren't real cars. If you own a watch and don't use it daily and depend upon it to tell you the time it is bullshit. Not even jewelry. Just BS.

 

[Frank Dernie]

You know Ferrari aren't real cars. Corvettes are. Real high performance cars driven as real transportation.

I am reminded of the McLaren with more miles than any other. Owned by one of the Barrett Jackson fellows. It has 18 thousand miles. Most of that on a private road. Those aren't real cars. If you own a watch and don't use it daily and depend upon it to tell you the time it is bullshit. Not even jewelry. Just BS.

My business was designing Formula 1 cars for about 35 years. Here marketing and BS doesn't cut it. I saw quite a few comings and goings from people who thought they could BS in F1 the way they could in their business, but in marketing all you need to do is convince enough people you are doing something special, ie image, not actually do it.
In F1, one every 2 weeks you get to prove what you can do. The BS merchants always fail and move on.

I like watches and wear a mechanical one which is accurate enough for my purposes because I like the styling of it and I don't live to the nearest second day-to-day.

I think a lot of the problem with high end hifi is that it is actually fairly straightforward nowadays for good engineering to produce products with lower-than-audible levels of distortion (if the old Quad figure of 0.1% is really the threshold), including mid-range frequency speakers (bass and treble units are quite expensive or impossible at that distortion level).
That means spending a gazillion on a high end system is likely to get you something probably better made and nicer looking than something modestly priced. It may go louder without problem but at normal listening levels it will not sound much different.

So very expensive equipment having well and truly audible (if euphonic) levels of distortion will sound different and, since they are reassuringly expensive, many will just assume this different sound is better quality. It is unlikely to be unenjoyable if the high distortion has a pleasant nature.

Record players and SET amps are in this category.

 

[Keith_W]

You know, that's great. I am an academic in Medicine. There are absolutely zero BS merchants here.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

You know, that's great. I am an academic in Medicine. There are absolutely zero BS merchants here.

This has not escaped notice.

 

[watchnerd]

Record players and SET amps are in this category.

As someone who owns a turntable and some tube gear, I'm going to say this:

Record players and SET amps are not high end (if one means high performance).

Their inherent distortion stats and dynamic limitations have been surpassed and they introduce coloration that is antithetical to those who believe an audio reproduction chain should be as neutral as possible.

Record players and SET amps are audiophile.

Their inherent distortions are sought out by those who believe an audio chain should be as pleasing to the ear as possible.


There was a time when high end audio = high performance. But now high end is often used to mean "expensive placebophile" gear.

 

[Sal1950]

There was a time when high end audio = high performance. But now high end is often used to mean "expensive placebophile" gear.

Yep, very true, and sad.
Sad that most accessible and celebrated voices for todays high fidelity market like Stereophile, TAS, and sites like WBF & CA are completely FOS. To find any truth within their pages you have to dig deep and read between the lines, using some prior knowledge in the field to make correct deductions.
The newbie looking to find good solid purchasing info is screwed.

 

[amirm]

Now you are starting to get the point of high end audio. This is encouraging It isn't necessarily about having the most perfect measurements. Just like that is not the point of your mechanical watch. Or why I stick with fountain pens when everyone else is typing on a keyboard. Watching some of you guys go on about how such-and-such is overpriced because it doesn't measure so well reminds me of those car forums where people say that Ferrari's aren't worth it because their souped-up rice rocket is just as fast. Or some camera forums where people dismiss Leica or Hasselblad as overpriced jewelry with the very same arguments you are using against high end audio. Yes, a Sony A7S2 has much superior high ISO performance, dynamic range, etc. than any Leica you care to name. It can even use Leica lenses. But that too, is missing the point.

I agree that having beef with the price of most equipment is not what science is about. Or should be our concern. It is expensive to build and sell low-volume luxury products. Now if it is a $1000 cable, that might be fair game . But in general I like us to avoid going after the price of something just because it is expensive.

 

[watchnerd]

I agree that having beef with the price of most equipment is not what science is about. Or should be our concern. It is expensive to build and sell low-volume luxury products. Now if it is a $1000 cable, that might be fair game . But in general I like us to avoid going after the price of something just because it is expensive.

Is evaluating performance for dollar having a beef?

 

[Thomas savage]

Is evaluating performance for dollar having a beef?

No, it's more having a carrot .. That's ok, even if your vegan.

 

[FrantzM]

No, it's more having a carrot .. That's ok, even if your vegan.

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