Zero-emission vehicles, their batteries & subsidies/rebates for them.- No politics regarding the subsidies!

[pablolie]

Car companies use the same chips over many generations of vehicles. This allows keeping older vehicles alive. COVID threw everything askew, but otherwise, this was going to keep going happily. They just need to move towards more interchangeable electronics where the functionality of the old is included in the new, like how I can plug a brand new SSD into an old computer with SATA, or even use a SATA to IDE adapter for older machines.

They don't. Emission standards dictate new electronics in new cars. And that tablet they wire into the car for control of everything? Obsolete in 2-3 years. And a security hazard to boot.

 

[Blumlein 88]

They don't. Emission standards dictate new electronics in new cars. And that tablet they wire into the car for control of everything? Obsolete in 2-3 years. And a security hazard to boot.

Reading your comments in several threads maybe it is an off day for you. I suggest chill a bit and try again tomorrow.

 

[Ron Texas]

There's a lot of shooting from the hip going on around here.

 

[j_j]

Tesla and EV Expert Sandy Munro: Solid State Batteries are "Kiss of Death" for Gas Cars

EV expert Sandy Munro promises "no comparison between the current technology or anything petroleum based" when solid state batteries hit the market.

www.motortrend.com

Well, we shall see how this works out, but it does seem that there are upgrades on the horizon. No, this article is not terribly informative, so we shall have to see.

That's science, let's see the evidence.

 

[beefkabob]

Promises of solid state batteries have been made for many years. And yet... Same with fuel cells. So there are border cases that work, sure, but in the best case scenario, solid state batteries will slowly filter down to consumer applications on the high end, likely over decades. Lithium ion started in the laptop and phone space then slowly grew cheap enough to allow larger scales. Today, lithium tech keeps progressing. Solid state batteries may be like lithium, slowly replacing nickel and other technologies; it may be like fuel cells or rotary engines, never quite making the grade. What it won't be is a sudden leapfrog and replacement of lithium. The real world just doesn't operate that way.

 

[blueone]

Yeah, our last "large car" ( a mommie van) had I think 12 processors in it. I'm pretty sure my current mazda has more processor than a cray one. The ability of the Skyactiv system to adapt to fuel, etc, is phenomenal.

Actually, if you just bring along your iPhone 14 Pro you'll have about 2 Teraflops (32bit) in your hand, compared to about 240 Megaflops (64bit) (rolling downhill with an optimized application) for the Cray 1. And, of course, you had to have a DG minicomputer to do I/O and control functions to make the Cray work. At least the DG might fit in the van.

 

[Marc v E]

Tesla and EV Expert Sandy Munro: Solid State Batteries are "Kiss of Death" for Gas Cars

EV expert Sandy Munro promises "no comparison between the current technology or anything petroleum based" when solid state batteries hit the market.

www.motortrend.com

Well, we shall see how this works out, but it does seem that there are upgrades on the horizon. No, this article is not terribly informative, so we shall have to see.

That's science, let's see the evidence.

It's not that clear to me what the benefit of solid state is over, say, a current li-ion battery with 500 wh per kilogram.

I'm hearing much about solid state, but meanwhile lithium batteries get so much better that I sometimes wonder which will come first: solid state batteries or ordinary batteries that are slightly less powerfull, but cheaper to produce and good enough for the purpose.

What do you think?

 

[A Cute Earring]

I wouldn’t mind having these batteries in my devices…. https://ndb.technology/

 

[j_j]

Actually, if you just bring along your iPhone 14 Pro you'll have about 2 Teraflops (32bit) in your hand, compared to about 240 Megaflops (64bit) (rolling downhill with an optimized application) for the Cray 1. And, of course, you had to have a DG minicomputer to do I/O and control functions to make the Cray work. At least the DG might fit in the van.

Well, my Moto is pretty similar, indeed.

I started out doing work on a DG Eclipse with array processor. Yeah, it's faster now.

 

[j_j]

I sometimes wonder which will come first: solid state batteries or ordinary batteries that are slightly less powerfull, but cheaper to produce and good enough for the purpose.

What do you think?

My suspicion is better sodium-based batteries. Less toxic electrolyte, does not burn nearly as well as LiON. The "solid state" batteries that work at 185C, well, that's going to remain specialized.

 

[Doodski]

The "solid state" batters that work at 185C

Whew! Leading downhole high temp and pressure tools are qualifying to spec at ~180C and they have no guaranteed operating life expectancy. ~185C for semi conductor strata is about the limits unless really high grade stuff I imagine. I don't know about solid state batteries but I know downhole tools as I used to spec them and do QA/QC for a downhole tool company.

 

[j_j]

Whew! Leading downhole high temp and pressure tools are qualifying to spec at ~180C and they have no guaranteed operating life expectancy. ~185C for semi conductor strata is about the limits unless really high grade stuff I imagine. I don't know about solid state batteries but I know downhole tools as I used to spec them and do QA/QC for a downhole tool company.

Yeah. The batteries may work at that temperature (solid state does not mean semiconductors of course at that temperature), but I sure want my electronics to be somewhere else. That would even create some issues for hollow-state devices and downrate their specs.

 

[Doodski]

hollow-state devices

Hmmz. I never heard that term before. More knowledge to be gleaned and read about.

 

[blueone]

Well, my Moto is pretty similar, indeed.

If you have the new Edge Plus, it uses the Qualcomm Snapdragon 8 processor/chipset, just as impressive as the A16.

I started out doing work on a DG Eclipse with array processor. Yeah, it's faster now.

Fancy stuff in its day.

 

[j_j]

If you have the new Edge Plus, it uses the Qualcomm Snapdragon 8 processor/chipset, just as impressive as the A16.

I have to say my Moto does not require 3 floors to operate, either. Top floor processor, next floor power supplies, bottom floor cooling.
Cray 1 and 2 were amazing for their time, but then Alliant came along with their gate-array 68020 that got us poor signal processors 88 mflops instead of a paltry 5. More to the point, it gave us TWO WHOLE MEGABYTES of memory. TWO! HUGE space. 320 mb/drive.

That machine (FX8) is responsible for the first full-on perceptual audio coder.

Those were the days

 

[MediumRare]

I think many of you would be interested in this Thread as well:

Car Powertrain of the Future - E-Fuels, Fuel cells or Battery based

Here's a presentation from Maximilian Fichtner, he is Professor of Solid State Chemistry at the Ulm University, Director of the Helmholtz Institute Ulm and spokesperson of of the Cluster of Excellence POLiS. The POLiS cluster of excellence is Germany's attempt to catch up again with the leading...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Blumlein 88]

I posted this in a couple of the other threads, but it fits here too. Decent article on why the math does not work for e-fuels.

Synthetic gasoline promises neutral emissions—but the math doesn’t work

E-fuels sound like a panacea, but there's not enough spare electricity to make them.

arstechnica.com

 

[levimax]

I posted this in a couple of the other threads, but it fits here too. Decent article on why the math does not work for e-fuels.

Synthetic gasoline promises neutral emissions—but the math doesn’t work

E-fuels sound like a panacea, but there's not enough spare electricity to make them.

arstechnica.com

Articles like this about hydrogen and syn fuels are missing the fact that in many locations there is a glut of solar energy for several hours every day and it is getting worse due to subsidies and incentives. Wholesale power rates go negative at mid day in many locations. The last thing many areas need is more solar capacity. What is needed is some way to store all the excess power and get it to where it is needed when it is needed. Hydrogen and syn fuels can be part of the solution even if they are not as effecient as some other technologies.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Articles like this about hydrogen and syn fuels are missing the fact that in many locations there is a glut of solar energy for several hours every day and it is getting worse due to subsidies and incentives. Wholesale power rates go negative at mid day in many locations. The last thing many areas need is more solar capacity. What is needed is some way to store all the excess power and get it to where it is needed when it is needed. Hydrogen and syn fuels can be part of the solution even if they are not as effecient as some other technologies.

Maybe, but they are really inefficient. So much so they probably don't make sense even versus just turning off the output to some units if supply exceeds demand during midday. Hydrogen is better than e-fuel, but unless some better efficiencies can be found it too is not economically reasonable currently. What I'd see as the most reasonable case is making fuel for military purposes which are rather cost insensitive.

 

[MediumRare]

Articles like this about hydrogen and syn fuels are missing the fact that in many locations there is a glut of solar energy for several hours every day and it is getting worse due to subsidies and incentives. Wholesale power rates go negative at mid day in many locations. The last thing many areas need is more solar capacity. What is needed is some way to store all the excess power and get it to where it is needed when it is needed. Hydrogen and syn fuels can be part of the solution even if they are not as effecient as some other technologies.

Not sure how widespread that situation is - please share data if you have it - but the need for grid storage is clear. Here’s the ASR thread on that.

Grid Storage Systems for Renewable Energy - Technology and Projects (No Politics)

Renewable energy sources such and wind and solar have now achieved "lowest levelized cost" status, producing electricity more cheaply than any fossil fuel option. Their full cost of production is also lower than that of current nuclear options once capital costs are considered (the "levelized"...

audiosciencereview.com

Nevertheless, H2 and syn fuels are terrible options. There are many more efficient and larger scale ways to store (time and location-shift) the excess electricity. And then using electricity directly is better in most applications. Maritime would be an exception; ammonia (not LH2) feeding H2 fuel cells is a promising option there.