Car Powertrain of the Future - E-Fuels, Fuel cells or Battery based

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Here's a presentation from Maximilian Fichtner, he is Professor of Solid State Chemistry at the Ulm University, Director of the Helmholtz Institute Ulm and spokesperson of of the Cluster of Excellence POLiS. The POLiS cluster of excellence is Germany's attempt to catch up again with the leading Asian countries in battery research and production.

In the video it is explained in a straightforward way what are the main differences of the "green" car drive technologies.

 

[MediumRare]

Here’s why H2 fuel cells will never make sense for autos. Plus, with silicon anodes and SS batteries, range and charge time will become non-issues.

E-fuels: how big a niche can they carve out for cars?

Sections of industry back synthetic alternatives to fossil fuels, but case is much stronger for aviation

www.theguardian.com

 

[Blumlein 88]

Synthetic gasoline promises neutral emissions—but the math doesn’t work

E-fuels sound like a panacea, but there's not enough spare electricity to make them.

arstechnica.com

Good article on E-fuels. Why the math does not work.

 

[ErVikingo]

I would like to see a comparison of the whole car. Not only usage efficiency on the end car but considering making the car, disposing of them and generating the fuel or energy that powers them.

 

[MediumRare]

I would like to see a comparison of the whole car. Not only usage efficiency on the end car but considering making the car, disposing of them and generating the fuel or energy that powers them.

Here you go. The EV vehicle is lower, the batteries are worse, but the fuel overwhelms the vehicles themselves. Even 100% nat gas generated energy is far cleaner because the efficiency of EV v. ICE is about double. Cleaner electricity makes it even better than what is shown. https://www.iea.org/data-and-statis...s-emissions-of-a-mid-size-bev-and-ice-vehicle

 

[SSS]

I would like to see a comparison of the whole car. Not only usage efficiency on the end car but considering making the car, disposing of them and generating the fuel or energy that powers them.

Right. Therefore I use my cars as long as they are able to run. No waste, no new production effort with a lot of energy and material. Of course car manufacturer don't like this.

 

[MediumRare]

Right. Therefore I use my cars as long as they are able to run. No waste, no new production effort with a lot of energy and material. Of course car manufacturer don't like this.

Cars are definitely lasting longer, more than 30% longer over the past 10 years. It’s also important to note most expired cars are substantially (80-86%) recycled; there are also several up-and-coming EV battery recycling companies. They are already able to recover the vast majority of the minerals in a battery. That being said, EV batteries are lasting longer than expected and have other post-vehicle uses (see our Grid Storage thread).

 

[ErVikingo]

I work on mines, refineries and power Gen. Also race cars semi pro. I own an eTron.

I’m always skeptical of what I read since I see the other side, the behind the scenes madness to get metals and energy.

Currently the systems (distribution mostly) in the USA are struggling with the added loads to charge cars which coincide with the second peak of the day.

 

[MediumRare]

I work on mines, refineries and power Gen. Also race cars semi pro. I own an eTron.

I’m always skeptical of what I read since I see the other side, the behind the scenes madness to get metals and energy.

Currently the systems (distribution mostly) in the USA are struggling with the added loads to charge cars which coincide with the second peak of the day.

Absolutely. That’s a grid storage issue. Here’s the tread to participate in that. https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...gy-technology-and-projects-no-politics.40753/

The backlog of interconnections for new renewable projects is a serious problem.

 

[MediumRare]

Several interesting points, among them, EVs have not put much strain on the grid because they are frequently charged overnight. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/08/...ytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

 

[MediumRare]

Excellent info on changing EV battery chemistry with lower costs to increase range especially in colder conditions https://www.bloomberg.com/news/news...ace-lfp-cells-as-china-strides-ahead-lhorjw2j

 

[ErVikingo]

Several interesting points, among them, EVs have not put much strain on the grid because they are frequently charged overnight. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/08/...ytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

I'm afraid a different story in the USA. Planners argue that much more capacity is needed for the now extended peak between 1800-2300. Simple step is to program charging time to 2400-0500

 

[MediumRare]

I'm afraid a different story in the USA. Planners argue that much more capacity is needed for the now extended peak between 1800-2300. Simple step is to program charging time to 2400-0500

True, the US is not like Norway, but for the opposite reason: Norway has hydro and wind. In California, solar is a bigger factor, so charging is best in the mid-morning. I think the lesson is to have load-based (even predictive AI) automated charging timing dependent on the specific location (generation sources) and weather at that period. Users could select for priority or efficiency; most will choose efficiency since daily range required is so much less than battery capacity in the vast majority of use cases. https://news.stanford.edu/2022/09/22/charging-cars-home-night-not-way-go/

 

[ErVikingo]

Yup, good ideas!

For background, our car (and its charger) do not allow for programming a time. It only allows a choice of how much you want to charge.

 

[beefkabob]

Yup, good ideas!

For background, our car (and its charger) do not allow for programming a time. It only allows a choice of how much you want to charge.

What car is that? I have 3 EVs. Two can set charging maximums and one cannot. All three can set charging windows to get the best rates. The only EV I ever owned that couldn't set a charging window was a Fiat 500e, and that was a compliance car, through and through.

 

[beefkabob]

Late night and early morning power usage is still far lower than daytime consumption. Peak consumption is typically as people come home from work. When the power companies start complaining that they need to build more capacity for the middle of the night, then we'll know we have an issue, but we are far away from that day. PGe does a nice job of balancing solar production and power needs. The cheapest times are from 12 AM to 3 PM.

 

[ErVikingo]

What car is that? I have 3 EVs. Two can set charging maximums and one cannot. All three can set charging windows to get the best rates. The only EV I ever owned that couldn't set a charging window was a Fiat 500e, and that was a compliance car, through and through.

eTron SUV. First version, no idea if the new ones allow for programming (will now soon as we are waiting for a 2023)

 

[levimax]

Ferrari is going to take it's time to move to EV's https://www.breitbart.com/europe/20...will-stick-to-traditional-combustion-engines/

 

[beefkabob]

Ferrari has done a lot of hybrid work. Really, though, Ferrari is big on sound.

 

[MediumRare]

A new battery chemistry, lithium-iron-manganese-phosphate battery (LMFP) claims lower cost, higher W/Kg density, charges 10% to 80% in 18 minutes. In production in 12 months from now. And this is from only the #8 battery producer. What else is coming soon?

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Thanks for reading Hyperdrive, Bloomberg’s newsletter on what’s reshaping the auto world. Read today’s featured story online here. Another Advance For Cheaper Batteries​ One of China’s top battery-makers reckons it has cracked a technology to provide even cheaper and more powerful packs for electric vehicles. Gotion High-Tech recently unveiled a lithium-iron-manganese-phosphate battery — LMFP for short — which it says will power an EV for 1,000 kilometers (621 miles) on each charge. Until now, it’s largely the more expensive nickel-cobalt batteries have provided that kind of range. “It’s an upgrade, it’s a leap for energy density,” Cheng Qian, executive president of Gotion’s international business unit, said in a phone interview. Gotion’s offering adds manganese to existing LFP chemistry that was commercialized in China and has been adopted by major EV makers from BYD to Tesla as a method of cutting the cost of some models. Improvements in LFP that pack more power into smaller packages have helped popularize the technology, which is typically cheaper to manufacture. Read: How Tesla’s Quest for Cheaper Batteries Buoys China: QuickTake LFP batteries almost hit a ceiling of energy density at 190Wh/kg, Cheng said, while Gotion’s new battery could achieve 240Wh/kg. That means it can store more energy in every battery cell, minimizing the weight and size of the pack. The innovation highlights how battery technology and raw material needs are still evolving and unpredictable as the world’s automakers seek to slash costs while boosting EV performance. It also shows how Chinese companies continue to pioneer those advances. Gotion, listed in Shenzhen and with Volkswagen as its largest shareholder, expects its LMFP battery to cost 5% less than a conventional LFP battery in terms of dollars per kilowatt hour, Cheng said. That would be as much as 20% to 25% cheaper than nickel-cobalt units. The LMFP chemistry can replace some of the industry’s nickel-cobalt cells “with the same performance but lower costs and better safety,” Cheng said. “I think it’s very attractive for carmakers, and I have to say a lot of companies will follow this trend.” LMFP technology is not new, but traditionally the cells are not used in EV applications for reasons from low conductivity to high-temperature dissolution or low density. Gotion said its battery — which it calls “Astroinno” — has overcome those technical challenges. Astroinno battery pack. Photographer: Gotion High-Tech Co. Gotion’s manganese-added cells “will create real opportunity to compete with some NCM chemistries where standard LFP struggles to compete on energy density,” said Victoria Hugill, battery research analyst at London-based consultancy Rho Motion. LMFP could take a 6% market share by 2040, likely surpassing other emerging options like sodium-ion batteries, she said. Astroinno could be in mass production as soon as the second quarter next year, according to Cheng. It has passed safety tests and the LMFP batteries will be manufactured in two plants in China’s Anhui province. Gotion has been ramping up overseas expansions, from planning a battery plant in Michigan state to raising a global depositary receipts offering in Switzerland last year. The company was the world’s 8th-largest battery manufacturer last year, according to SNE Research. Astroinno joins some other significant battery innovations by Chinese companies in recent years. In 2020, BYD launched its Blade battery — an LFP unit with sleeker shape and improved energy density. CATL is developing what it calls a condensed-state battery. Among advantages will be an ability for fast charging that could take just shade more than a quarter of an hour, according to Gotion’s Cheng “You can have a cup of coffee and rest at the charging station, and the battery will be charged from 10% to 80% within 18 minutes using the step charging,” he said. — By Annie Lee