Zero-emission vehicles, their batteries & subsidies/rebates for them.- No politics regarding the subsidies!

[j_j]

Pretty much every ICEV made today is a computer on wheels. The 90s was around when the last new car was sold in the US without computers to run the engine.

Yeah, our last "large car" ( a mommie van) had I think 12 processors in it. I'm pretty sure my current mazda has more processor than a cray one. The ability of the Skyactiv system to adapt to fuel, etc, is phenomenal.

 

[droid2000]

"No politics regarding the subsidies" lol

 

[beefkabob]

Yeah, our last "large car" ( a mommie van) had I think 12 processors in it. I'm pretty sure my current mazda has more processor than a cray one. The ability of the Skyactiv system to adapt to fuel, etc, is phenomenal.

It'll be interesting to see a definition of "processor". Some vehicles even have light bulbs that communicate over CAN. I can't remember where it was discussed, maybe it was even here, but these bulbs can even be security problems, allowing cars to be stolen. Security is always best as an afterthought.

 

[j_j]

It'll be interesting to see a definition of "processor". Some vehicles even have light bulbs that communicate over CAN. I can't remember where it was discussed, maybe it was even here, but these bulbs can even be security problems, allowing cars to be stolen. Security is always best as an afterthought.

I suppose something that could qualify as a Turing machine. In the case of the mommievan, the answer was a forest of 4 and 8 bit pre-ARM control processors.

 

[beefkabob]

I suppose something that could qualify as a Turing machine. In the case of the mommievan, the answer was a forest of 4 and 8 bit pre-ARM control processors.

I'm not sure what level of IC it takes to be Turing complete. Can't be all that much.

This looks to do the job:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1301707401024827392

 

[j_j]

A 1 bit computer with only write-once storage can be a Turing machine, so no, it doesn't take much.
The chips in the old Grand Caravan were way better than that.

And, yeah, that cheater digital pregnancy test (it's a cheater because all it does is waste hardware on pee strip that anyone could use) has a processor that, with an external write-once storage system, could pass (with low efficiency) as a turing machine. Witl some ram, no problem.

 

[Ron Texas]

Pretty much every ICEV made today is a computer on wheels. The 90s was around when the last new car was sold in the US without computers to run the engine.

There are certainly a lot of computer chips. However, most of them are special purpose computers which control a limited function. That's one of the reason the chip shortage caused a shortage of cars. EV's (and some newer ICE designs) are software defined cars. That is a central computer controls many functions and the availability of many features. You may recall when the chip shortage started Musk found an available processor and had his engineers adapt the software to it.

 

[pablolie]

There are certainly a lot of computer chips. However, most of them are special purpose computers which control a limited function. That's one of the reason the chip shortage caused a shortage of cars. EV's (and some newer ICE designs) are software defined cars. That is a central computer controls many functions and the availability of many features. You may recall when the chip shortage started Musk found an available processor and had his engineers adapt the software to it.

But even that available processor will be obsolete within 2 years at most. And impossible to replace in 10 years, when production and supply has loooong run out. That is the trap with all of our modern cars. That's why I keep a car where the only real electronics are the fuel injection, ABS and the radio. And many of the things in cars are PCBs... which are obsoleted even earlier than the chips themselves, and are never stocked to secure "eternal supply". And try soldering stuff on PCBs with multiple layers these days... those days are over.

IMO, when cars inevitably become self-driving EVs, I will have zero reason to own one myself. Something like Uber would be far better, since I am neither driving nor particularly enjoying the control/dynamics of the driving experience. I have stocked both a motorcycle and a car with minimal electronics. I think pretty much anything on the market these days has limited longevity programmed into it.

 

[Ron Texas]

But even that available processor will be obsolete within 2 years at most. And impossible to replace in 10 years, when production and supply has loooong run out. That is the trap with all of our modern cars. That's why I keep a car where the only real electronics are the fuel injection, ABS and the radio. And many of the things in cars are PCBs... which are obsoleted even earlier than the chips themselves, and are never stocked to secure "eternal supply". And try soldering stuff on PCBs with multiple layers these days... those days are over.

IMO, when cars inevitably become self-driving EVs, I will have zero reason to own one myself. Something like Uber would be far better, since I am neither driving nor particularly enjoying the control/dynamics of the driving experience. I have stocked both a motorcycle and a car with minimal electronics. I think pretty much anything on the market these days has limited longevity programmed into it.

If you like simple there are tons of 25 year old Jeep wranglers still on the road.

 

[j_j]

If you like simple there are tons of 25 year old Jeep wranglers still on the road.

I'm old, I don't want to yank heads and grind exhaust valves, so no thanks.

 

[pablolie]

If you like simple there are tons of 25 year old Jeep wranglers still on the road.

This is more fun https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2019-porsche-speedster-3/

 

[j_j]

This is more fun https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2019-porsche-speedster-3/

Ditto for replacing cylinder assemblies. Or for fooling with that giant nut in the clutch.

 

[pablolie]

Ditto for replacing cylinder assemblies. Or for fooling with that giant nut in the clutch.

Mine has a Toyota engine and ABS. But both engines have a reputation for being pretty much indestructible.

 

[Newman]

But even that available processor will be obsolete within 2 years at most. And impossible to replace in 10 years, when production and supply has loooong run out.

The average age of the US car fleet is 12 years, so there should be no shortage of parts yanked from scrap cars until...well basically forever.

That's why I keep a car where the only real electronics are the fuel injection, ABS and the radio.

That's completely unnecessary.

 

[pablolie]

The average age of the US car fleet is 12 years, so there should be no shortage of parts yanked from scrap cars until...well basically forever.

That's completely unnecessary.

We shall revise this discussion in 10 years.

 

[j_j]

Mine has a Toyota engine and ABS. But both engines have a reputation for being pretty much indestructible.

Well, only car that left me "F O R D" was an old Toyota, and I have fixed, in my life, a lot of superbug engines ... some of them down to replacing half of the crank case.

Yes, you can fix them, you can fix ANY PART of them, I think. But it's something you do have to do.

 

[beefkabob]

If a car is beloved enough to keep on the road for 30+ years, parts will be made by enthusiasts. They might not be OEM, though. If I had a 1987 Mustang LX 5.0 but my ECU died, I could buy an aftermarket ECU to run it all. rusefi.com, for the tinkerer. Other tinker options available. More expensive corporate options available too. Motec is the gold standard, but it takes a lot of gold to get one and you'll need to hire a tuner.

 

[Ron Texas]

A recent report by Carmax highlights a trend in vehicle owners switching from ICE to EV. Notably, owners of a particular brand are more likely to make this switch than owners of any other brand, representing a record 12% of customers who trade from ICE to EV.

Carmax's data indicates that Toyota owners are more likely to trade their vehicles for EVs than owners of any other brand.

According to Carmax's report, Toyota owners represent a record 12% of customers who trade from ICE to EV, followed by Ford and BMW at 8% and Honda at 7%. The most popular EV brand is Tesla, with the Tesla Model 3 being the most commonly traded for EV. The Honda Civic and Toyota Tacoma are the most common vehicles traded in for the Tesla Model 3, while the Toyota Prius is the most commonly traded in for the Nissan Leaf. Toyota and Honda owners are leading the migration to Tesla's offerings, likely due to their interest in environmentally friendly vehicles and the lack of EV options from their preferred brands.

 

[pablolie]

A recent report by Carmax highlights a trend in vehicle owners switching from ICE to EV. Notably, owners of a particular brand are more likely to make this switch than owners of any other brand, representing a record 12% of customers who trade from ICE to EV.

Carmax's data indicates that Toyota owners are more likely to trade their vehicles for EVs than owners of any other brand.

According to Carmax's report, Toyota owners represent a record 12% of customers who trade from ICE to EV, followed by Ford and BMW at 8% and Honda at 7%. The most popular EV brand is Tesla, with the Tesla Model 3 being the most commonly traded for EV. The Honda Civic and Toyota Tacoma are the most common vehicles traded in for the Tesla Model 3, while the Toyota Prius is the most commonly traded in for the Nissan Leaf. Toyota and Honda owners are leading the migration to Tesla's offerings, likely due to their interest in environmentally friendly vehicles and the lack of EV options from their preferred brands.

But that is a statistical average among all car buyers, who simply pick around what's currently available and are swayed by current buying trends, aka "if everybody else lusts for a Tesla I should too!" just like they were about Priuses when they came out.

My car credo is:

1. I want control. Unless I have it, I don't see why I should even own a car. Unless the driving experience is involved and fun, I might as well take an Uber.

2. I work in high tech. Anything you use advanced electronics in will be obsolete in 5 years. Unless you have a written guarantee with extended support (cars don't have that).

3. The consequence of (2) is that you will bleed to death paying for the super rare spare part in 10 years. While hoping it has some longevity to it (because trust me, there will be no warranty unless you have a maintenance contract that guarantees it).

4. Advanced chips that use the latest nanometer tech will vanish from the supply chain within 5 years. Check out something like Micron/Samsung HMC, which many high tech products relied upon. Totally gone. Lifetime for such a critical chip tech? 6 years. Nowhere to be found.

 

[beefkabob]

Car companies use the same chips over many generations of vehicles. This allows keeping older vehicles alive. COVID threw everything askew, but otherwise, this was going to keep going happily. They just need to move towards more interchangeable electronics where the functionality of the old is included in the new, like how I can plug a brand new SSD into an old computer with SATA, or even use a SATA to IDE adapter for older machines.