WIRED: The revival of the American vacuum tube at Western Electric in Rossville, Georgia, USA

[GXAlan]

My question is what are the ultimate limits of the design of tubes themselves? For instance, how low could noise go?*

The best specs I have seen are Canary Audio’s monoblocks:

Reference Two Monoblock Amplifiers

THD:	10W output: <0.07% 50W output: <0.18% 80W output: <1.0%
Signal-to-Noise Ratio:	-100 dB below 80 Watts

 

[DavidMcRoy]

In the music recording world there is a great romance by some for vintage equipment, including vacuum tube gain stages. Some of the famous vacuum tube equipment, like the Fairchild 670 have been modeled and made available as digital audio workstation plug-ins. Because of the voltages, transformers with their own frequency response and saturation nonlinearities, and all kinds of capacitors are found. (I'm not an expert on capacitors) Transformers are very useful in their linear operating regions for gain. Finding a good transformer designer and maker is harder than finding a good tube maker. So one would expect the nonlinearities and harmonic distortion would be in the models, hopefully not the noise!

There is still a lot of attraction in the recording industry to tube microphones, and some modern ones have a self noise figure around 10dB (A-weighted) trusting their specs. For instance the modern maker Rode in Australia, who pursues low noise design at low-moderate price points, publishes their NTK at 12 dB noise, and Telefunken, at a high price point for classic microphone reproductions, publishes 9 dB (A-weighted) for the amplifier on the ELA M 251E. Any power supply noise and capsule noise would be added. There is even a very exotic and expensive microphone, the Sony C-800G which attempts to minimize power supply noise, use shielding around the tube, and attached the tube to a cryocooler with thermal paste.^ For all that, they publish 18dB self noise. The major microphone makers would probably run their circuitry after the capsule through an Audio Precision to look at noise and distortion and have strict quality control on all the parts the signal passes, as well as outgoing quality measurement.

These tube microphones are often used for close mic vocals where whatever distortion and proximity effects they are producing are considered pleasing. After that, the vocal is usually run through compressors and other mystery plugins. So the noise may be less important than in distance microphones, where they were used in the old times because tube microphones and preamps were the only thing available. In those olden times, they were recording to tape and releasing to vinyl with those limitations.

All of this nonlinear grunge today is deliberately added for artistic purposes in the studio on pop drums, electric guitar, bass, keyboards, and vocals. It is part of the mystique of electric instrument amps (often tube as discussed in the article,) distortion producing pedals, and on-stage processors. It probably would not be heard today in classical and much jazz.

My question is what are the ultimate limits of the design of tubes themselves? For instance, how low could noise go?*

The second question is topology, feedback, and updated/more linear other circuit components, which would reduce harmonic and other distortion.

Surely with all the money in high end audio, someone could undertake this. Or we could just keep on our current road of tubes in the playback chain as a grungy fetish, while the true believers switch to modern components which measure clean.


^ Disassembly of unusual tube microphone

*https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1670580 A study of noise in vacuum tubes and attached circuits 1930 (Given the many uses of tubes in years after that there must be more good papers)

​

"

In the music recording world there is a great romance by some for vintage equipment, including vacuum tube gain stages. Some of the famous vacuum tube equipment, like the Fairchild 670 have been modeled and made available as digital audio workstation plug-ins. Because of the voltages, transformers with their own frequency response and saturation nonlinearities, and all kinds of capacitors are found. (I'm not an expert on capacitors) Transformers are very useful in their linear operating regions for gain. Finding a good transformer designer and maker is harder than finding a good tube maker. So one would expect the nonlinearities and harmonic distortion would be in the models, hopefully not the noise!

There is still a lot of attraction in the recording industry to tube microphones, and some modern ones have a self noise figure around 10dB (A-weighted) trusting their specs. For instance the modern maker Rode in Australia, who pursues low noise design at low-moderate price points, publishes their NTK at 12 dB noise, and Telefunken, at a high price point for classic microphone reproductions, publishes 9 dB (A-weighted) for the amplifier on the ELA M 251E. Any power supply noise and capsule noise would be added. There is even a very exotic and expensive microphone, the Sony C-800G which attempts to minimize power supply noise, use shielding around the tube, and attached the tube to a cryocooler with thermal paste.^ For all that, they publish 18dB self noise. The major microphone makers would probably run their circuitry after the capsule through an Audio Precision to look at noise and distortion and have strict quality control on all the parts the signal passes, as well as outgoing quality measurement.

These tube microphones are often used for close mic vocals where whatever distortion and proximity effects they are producing are considered pleasing. After that, the vocal is usually run through compressors and other mystery plugins. So the noise may be less important than in distance microphones, where they were used in the old times because tube microphones and preamps were the only thing available. In those olden times, they were recording to tape and releasing to vinyl with those limitations.

All of this nonlinear grunge today is deliberately added for artistic purposes in the studio on pop drums, electric guitar, bass, keyboards, and vocals. It is part of the mystique of electric instrument amps (often tube as discussed in the article,) distortion producing pedals, and on-stage processors. It probably would not be heard today in classical and much jazz.

My question is what are the ultimate limits of the design of tubes themselves? For instance, how low could noise go?*

The second question is topology, feedback, and updated/more linear other circuit components, which would reduce harmonic and other distortion.

Surely with all the money in high end audio, someone could undertake this. Or we could just keep on our current road of tubes in the playback chain as a grungy fetish, while the true believers switch to modern components which measure clean.


^ Disassembly of unusual tube microphone

*https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1670580 A study of noise in vacuum tubes and attached circuits 1930 (Given the many uses of tubes in years after that there must be more good papers)

​

"Surely with all the money in high end audio, someone could undertake this. Or we could just keep on our current road of tubes in the playback chain as a grungy fetish, while the true believers switch to modern components which measure clean."

You make it sound like it's a bad thing. "Tube fetishists" don't care about what "true believers" think. What's the point of trying to interior decorate someone out of what they like just because it isn't "pure?"

 

[computer-audiophile]

Ah, I see, it was used as a series regulator.

In fact, I also once saw an original NOS WE 300B in a new so-called high-end power supply as a linear regulator in a Hi-Fi store. I thought that was a waste of money at the time.

 

[computer-audiophile]

I can certainly imagine preferring a different sound. For costs, you really cannot compare two countries given the differences in labor standards. Some vote with their wallet, others do not.

Me neither, with me it's curiosity. I myself come from the technical and scientific field, professionally.

 

[computer-audiophile]

In my Raphaelite review, I talk about the history of Western Electric between WWII and the 300B in Japan. It was all military/defense!

These are all old familiar stories. I'm more interested in the early audio applications of the 300B and 211, the old circuits and the retro design look of these devices. I have heard these originals and the matching speakers also more than once. It is the sound of the past.
My own 300B and 211, the ones which I built last for fun 2 years ago look so similar on purpose, but sound much better.

 

[fpitas]

It started that way in the 1930’s for sure.

After WWII and during the Cold War, Western Electric continued to produce these tubes…

Page 8

https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Audio/Archive-Audio-Magazines-Other/Archive-Vacuum-Tube-Valley/Vacuum-Tube-Valley-03.pdf

View attachment 283104

I bet audiophiles used to hook themselves up to the regulated HV just to admire how smooth it was!

 

[computer-audiophile]

Fast forward to the present, today’s WE is using Graphene. So it’s truly an evolution of the original. I have a more-than-Wikipedia level understanding of ALD and Graphene.

This is interesting, but also a bit contradictory to the story that they want to apply old know-how and techniques. If I understand correctly, they want to make a 'better' 300B tube. Whatever that means, it certainly doesn't mean that it's very close or identical to the classic original. Will this be accepted by collectors or vintage amp owners looking for a replacement part? I am curious.

By the way, the German manufacturer ELROG also has the ambition to make better audio tubes derived from the old types.

 

[GXAlan]

This is interesting, but also a bit contradictory to the story that they want to apply old know-how and techniques. If I understand correctly, they want to make a 'better' 300B tube. Whatever that means, it certainly doesn't mean that it's very close or identical to the classic original. Will this be accepted by collectors or vintage amp owners looking for a replacement part? I am curious.

By the way, the German manufacturer ELROG also has the ambition to make better audio tubes derived from the old types.

There is a good interview by Absolute Sound about this on YouTube.

They are pretty forthright about the stuff that is the same and the stuff that is different.

 

[tomtoo]

I mixed up rossville with rosswell and thought hell the aliens build tubes.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Thanks for the video.

I only clicked in for short sequences of the lengthy lecture: ... making deionized water for cleaning purposes used to be no problem either 100 years ago, you can distill it in quartz glasses and then you get a ultra pure quality. Today it is mostly done with ion exchangers.

More important: He also went into the "improvements" of the new WE 300B amplifier: Controlled Constant Current Source - Western Electric 91E.

The higher power output is achieved using semiconductors. This is one thing that I strongly oppose in context. It's already halfway to a SS amp.

I rather follow a purist 'tube' idea. But that's for everyone to know for themselves.


I found this PDF:

 

[anmpr1]

Sure, but I wonder how many guitarists will be getting boutique tubes. And if they get super competitive with the foreign makes, the profit from each 12AX7 just can't be much.

The guitar scene is kind of strange. Unlike hi-fi, where tube amps seem to have no upper price limit, and high price is actually a feature, an expensive guitar amp will top out at possibly four grand, and most are going to be a whole lot less. I don't know anyone buying an Amplified Nation, or even a high end Mesa. Of course I'm talking about what you can buy today from Sweetwater, or GC--not over the top collectable stuff, like Dumble, which sells because of its history.

[Today, most guitar related purchases appear (to my limited and uneducated mind) to be mostly 'inexpensive' pedal devices.]

Next, a high-end Kemper is only going to set you back two thousand dollars, and modeling is gaining absolute acceptance, at remarkably low-end prices. Unlike hi-fi, where people lose their heads if anyone suggests that SS can ever replicate a tube. I don't think that view has changed since the clowns at Stereophile threw Bob Carver under the bus for attempting it.

The sad problem is that US local manufacturing is just not cost effective. Think about Mike Mathews (Electro-Harmonix) fighting (literally) with the NY unions, and having to move his operation to Russia in order to survive (at least according to his side of the tale). Western won't have that exact problem in Tennessee, but there are other factors.

In spite of what people say, most folk's bottom line is whatever dollars they have left over after grocery shopping, and that's not a lot. So they'll purchase based solely on cost, which will always mean an import. I wish Western well, but I don't see them competing with JJ, Electro, or Chinese product. Not without tariffs, or some other imposition. But I've been wrong before, so who knows? In any case, like you, I don't think expensive guitar tubes are going to be a winner in the marketplace. If most guitar players are like me (and I wouldn't wish that on anyone), when it's time to order, you sort the Tube Depot listings by 'price', and then hope there is some availability.

 

[fpitas]

Luckily there's a world of perfectly common tubes that drag down big bucks if you sell to audiophiles. Maybe WE can lay claim to the All American sound

 

[egellings]

300Bs were never power supply tubes. Rather, they've always been for AF power amps - either for long distance telephony or for cinema sound.

That's my understanding, too. Weren't they used as repeaters in transatlantic cables? They would have had to have proven reliability in a setting like that, since trying to replace one in that watery setting would have been a real challenge. As for power supply usage, I don't think that the 300B would have been a good pass element, although maybe it could be pressed into such service, I 'spoze.

 

[Jp_nh]

Sure would love to see some good 7591s made again. I've had issues with the New Sensor reissues. Fairly uncommon tube though so I imagine it's not at the top of the list.

 

[dfuller]

Sure would love to see some good 7591s made again. I've had issues with the New Sensor reissues. Fairly uncommon tube though so I imagine it's not at the top of the list.

Doesn't JJ make one? Heard it's pretty bad though.

 

[Jp_nh]

Doesn't JJ make one? Heard it's pretty bad though.

Yeah the JJ and Electro Harmonix aren't very good in my opinion. The Tung Sol reissues are a bit better, but still nowhere near Westinghouse or Sylvania.

 

[Waxx]

Elrog produces in Hagenow in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Germany. But those tubes are very expensive, partly caused by that. I don't know many who want to spend 1200 to 2500€ for a 300B tube, even rich people won't do that fast. But still they manage to sell those enough to keep in bussiness. It's also partly because the owner has it's own "super high end tube amp" brand Vinylsavor that use those in all their models. Most amps he sell are one-off custom designs that cost ridiculous amounts of money and look spectacular and sell a lot to superrich in Europe. And even his standard 300B SET monoblock is already 57K for a pair. So it's a very niche product.

More mainstream tube amps with those are mostly using chinese production today, as those are the best that are somewhat reasonable priced.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Elrog produces in Hagenow in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Germany. But those tubes are very expensive, partly caused by that. I don't know many who want to spend 1200 to 2500€ for a 300B tube,

What ist the price for a 'new' Western Electric 300B? (I do not know)

the owner has it's own "super high end tube amp" brand Vinylsavor that use those in all their models.

I know Thomas Mayer and the chief developer at ELROG. I am especially grateful to Thomas for the advice he gave me when I first started building amps with the 300B and 211 decades ago. I know some people who use this ELROG tubes. I didn't do it because I want to stay closer to the 'classic' look.

 

[GXAlan]

What ist the price for a 'new' Western Electric 300B? (I do not know)

$700 but with a 5 year guarantee.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Thanks for the information. In my opinion, this is not overly expensive if you want to indulge in a little luxury.