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WIRED: The revival of the American vacuum tube at Western Electric in Rossville, Georgia, USA

charleski

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A video they linked in the article:

Clearly all his tubes are broken, because I just heard a screeching wail in every demo ;) .
 

fpitas

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12AX7 seems like an odd place to start. I think I'd make 6SN7s and 300Bs, 45s etc that drag down silly prices. But good luck to him.
 

dfuller

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12AX7 seems like an odd place to start. I think I'd make 6SN7s and 300Bs, 45s etc that drag down silly prices. But good luck to him.
On balance the vast majority of tube are sold for guitar amps, some of which have 6 or 7 12AX7s each on top of a pair or quad of power tubes (usually 6L6, EL34, 6V6, EL84).
 

computer-audiophile

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300B tubes bearing the Western Electric name are once again being manufactured. While this may seem like a continuation of tradition, it's important to recognize that the original know-how may no longer exist within the company. I personally find Western Electric tubes to be too expensive and instead prefer tubes made in China. Currently, these are 300B and 211 tubes from Linlai, prioritizing the quality of sound and affordability.
 

dfuller

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300B tubes bearing the Western Electric name are once again being manufactured. While this may seem like a continuation of tradition, it's important to recognize that the original know-how may no longer exist within the company. I personally find Western Electric tubes to be too expensive and instead prefer tubes made in China. Currently, these are 300B and 211 tubes from Linlai, prioritizing the quality of sound and affordability.
They actually did buy all the IP for the 300B, and hired on workers from the OG WE days to get them up to speed.
 

fpitas

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On balance the vast majority of tube are sold for guitar amps, some of which have 6 or 7 12AX7s each on top of a pair or quad of power tubes (usually 6L6, EL34, 6V6, EL84).
Sure, but I wonder how many guitarists will be getting boutique tubes. And if they get super competitive with the foreign makes, the profit from each 12AX7 just can't be much.
 
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DavidMcRoy

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Sure, but I wonder how many guitarists will be getting boutique tubes. And if they get super competitive with the foreign makes, the profit from each 12AX7 just can't be much.
That's why they hire MBAs to figure that stuff out, and this is apparently why they're pursuing the 12AX7 market early on:

"...It’s an improved version of a tube called the 12AX7, which is common in guitar preamps and other music gear—a market Whitener estimates is more than 10 times the size of the premium hi-fi business..."

Whitener's bean counters must reckon there's a big enough pie there, that there's an opportunity to sell an "improved" version of the product, the premium cost of which can be justified. They figure it can command a higher price because of the improved longevity of the product over standard-issue ones from overseas competitors. That a big part of where the "improved" is.
 
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DVDdoug

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Although shipments of Russian tubes have resumed, prices remain high and the quality of overseas tubes has always been unreliable. “You have to buy 100 tubes to get 30 you like,” says Justin Norvell, an executive vice president at Fender.
And I assume they sell the rejects into the surplus market and they are now so they can be re-sold as new.... Yikes! (Not that I care... I haven't seen a tube in maybe 30 years and I'm not a guitar player.)
 

fpitas

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That's why they hire MBAs to figure that stuff out, and this is apparently why they're pursuing the 12AX7 market early on:

"...It’s an improved version of a tube called the 12AX7, which is common in guitar preamps and other music gear—a market Whitener estimates is more than 10 times the size of the premium hi-fi business..."

Whitener's bean counters must reckon there's a big enough pie there, that there's an opportunity to sell an "improved" version of the product, the premium cost of which can be justified. They figure it can command a higher price because of the improved longevity of the product over standard-issue ones from overseas competitors. That a big part of where the "improved" is.
Well, good luck to him. Power tubes go a lot faster than the little dual triode voltage amps, so I'd be selling magic 6L6s to the guitarists.
 
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DavidMcRoy

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Well, good luck to him. Power tubes go a lot faster than the little dual triode voltage amps, so I'd be selling magic 6L6s to the guitarists.
Yeah, anecdotally I worked at a radio station in the late 1970s that was still using a tube mic preamp/processor (because the station owner liked it better than solid state offerings at the time..imagine that!) We only had to replace 12AX7s in it once in about 5 years while the thing was running 24/7. We had to get the RCA 77DX ribbon mic rebuilt periodically because of nicotine gunking up the ribbon:
IMG_7902.jpeg
 
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dfuller

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And I assume they sell the rejects into the surplus market and they are now so they can be re-sold as new.... Yikes! (Not that I care... I haven't seen a tube in maybe 30 years and I'm not a guitar player.)
A fair bit get put on the market, some just get returned as defective. The better tube sellers buy direct from the manufacturer.
Yeah, anecdotally I worked at a radio station in the late 1970s that was still using a tube mic preamp/processor (because the station owner liked it better than solid state offerings at the time..imagine that!) We only had to replace 12AX7s in it once in about 5 years while the thing was running 24/7. We had to get the RCA 77DX ribbon mic rebuilt periodically because of nicotine gunking up the ribbon:
Guitar amps are very rough on tubes, especially ones that get moved around a lot.
 

GXAlan

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300B tubes bearing the Western Electric name are once again being manufactured. While this may seem like a continuation of tradition, it's important to recognize that the original know-how may no longer exist within the company. I personally find Western Electric tubes to be too expensive and instead prefer tubes made in China. Currently, these are 300B and 211 tubes from Linlai, prioritizing the quality of sound and affordability.

I disagree respectfully. Bell Laboratories and the 300B’s primary use as an industrial power supply tube used for national defense applications means that the production was highly refined to ISO 9001 equivalent standards. These were all literally “mil-spec.” When Charles Whitner bought the name, he also bought the IP and he also hired some of the employees who had been working for WE in producing those tubes. Again, these were mass produced, not artisan productions.

Fast forward to the present, today’s WE is using Graphene. So it’s truly an evolution of the original. I have a more-than-Wikipedia level understanding of ALD and Graphene.

Now the question is sound quality.

The 300B’s produced are designed for reliability and endurance. They are power supply tubes. The addition of Graphene for a conformal layer of carbon further ensures consistency. They aren’t engineered for sound.

I can certainly imagine preferring a different sound. For costs, you really cannot compare two countries given the differences in labor standards. Some vote with their wallet, others do not.
 

dfuller

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I disagree respectfully. Bell Laboratories and the 300B’s primary use as an industrial power supply tube used for national defense applications means that the production was highly refined to ISO 9001 equivalent standards. These were all literally “mil-spec.” When Charles Whitner bought the name, he also bought the IP and he also hired some of the employees who had been working for WE in producing those tubes. Again, these were mass produced, not artisan productions.

Fast forward to the present, today’s WE is using Graphene. So it’s truly an evolution of the original. I have a more-than-Wikipedia level understanding of ALD and Graphene.

Now the question is sound quality.

The 300B’s produced are designed for reliability and endurance. They are power supply tubes. The addition of Graphene for a conformal layer of carbon further ensures consistency. They aren’t engineered for sound.

I can certainly imagine preferring a different sound. For costs, you really cannot compare two countries given the differences in labor standards. Some vote with their wallet, others do not.
300Bs were never power supply tubes. Rather, they've always been for AF power amps - either for long distance telephony or for cinema sound.
 

GXAlan

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dfuller

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GXAlan

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Ah, I see, it was used as a series regulator.
In my Raphaelite review, I talk about the history of Western Electric between WWII and the 300B in Japan. It was all military/defense!
 

robwpdx

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In the music recording world there is a great romance by some for vintage equipment, including vacuum tube gain stages. Some of the famous vacuum tube equipment, like the Fairchild 670 have been modeled and made available as digital audio workstation plug-ins. Because of the voltages, transformers with their own frequency response and saturation nonlinearities, and all kinds of capacitors are found. (I'm not an expert on capacitors) Transformers are very useful in their linear operating regions for gain. Finding a good transformer designer and maker is harder than finding a good tube maker. So one would expect the nonlinearities and harmonic distortion would be in the models, hopefully not the noise!

There is still a lot of attraction in the recording industry to tube microphones, and some modern ones have a self noise figure around 10dB (A-weighted) trusting their specs. For instance the modern maker Rode in Australia, who pursues low noise design at low-moderate price points, publishes their NTK at 12 dB noise, and Telefunken, at a high price point for classic microphone reproductions, publishes 9 dB (A-weighted) for the amplifier on the ELA M 251E. Any power supply noise and capsule noise would be added. There is even a very exotic and expensive microphone, the Sony C-800G which attempts to minimize power supply noise, use shielding around the tube, and attached the tube to a cryocooler with thermal paste.^ For all that, they publish 18dB self noise. The major microphone makers would probably run their circuitry after the capsule through an Audio Precision to look at noise and distortion and have strict quality control on all the parts the signal passes, as well as outgoing quality measurement.

These tube microphones are often used for close mic vocals where whatever distortion and proximity effects they are producing are considered pleasing. After that, the vocal is usually run through compressors and other mystery plugins. So the noise may be less important than in distance microphones, where they were used in the old times because tube microphones and preamps were the only thing available. In those olden times, they were recording to tape and releasing to vinyl with those limitations.

All of this nonlinear grunge today is deliberately added for artistic purposes in the studio on pop drums, electric guitar, bass, keyboards, and vocals. It is part of the mystique of electric instrument amps (often tube as discussed in the article,) distortion producing pedals, and on-stage processors. It probably would not be heard today in classical and much jazz.

My question is what are the ultimate limits of the design of tubes themselves? For instance, how low could noise go?* What I like about this article is that they are attempting to produce better quality than the vintage era.

The second question is topology, feedback, and updated/more linear other circuit components, which would reduce harmonic and other distortion.

Surely with all the money in high end audio, someone could undertake this. Or we could just keep on our current road of tubes in the playback chain as a grungy fetish = subjectively pleasing distortion, while the true believers switch to modern components which measure clean.


^ Disassembly of unusual tube microphone

*https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1670580 A study of noise in vacuum tubes and attached circuits 1930 (Given the many uses of tubes in years after that there must be more good papers)

 
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