Why no cheap AVRs from Topping / SMSL etc.

[ban25]

Let's remember that for a price of capable modern AVR you get really beefy computer. You still get crazy fast computer for quarter of price. And yes, that computer can do DD decoding on software for around 0.x CPU usage.

False. You can't even get a decent used video card for the price of an entry level AVR, let alone build a remotely decent PC "for a quarter of the price."

 

[bungle]

I know a few "Pros" and they are moving away from AVRs. In general they don't want one ring to rule them all , they want to pick and choose as they see fit.

That is what I am after too. I can pickup my sources, I can pickup my amps, I can pickup my speakers, I can pickup my EQs, I can pickup my room correction etc. But I still prefer to have the switch that connect all this together. I could really use a setup that:

1. has a source that output bitstream through hdmi
2. that is connected to central volume/source switch that can talk CEC (and has analog/digital/hdmi inputs - no analog video switching needed)
3. that is connected to bitstream decoder/pass through that outputs LPCM/analog/AES
4. that is connected to room correction
5. that is connected to subwoofer that does the cross-over
6. that is connected to main power amplifiers
7. that is connected to main speakers

But of course (some of) these kind of separates are quite hard to find, yet in any affordable price. Thus I am ok with combining something in the second (as the market is almost already doing that). Alternative but less user friendly is to build separate paths and equipment for music and video.

 

[bungle]

False. You can't even get a decent used video card for the price of an entry level AVR, let alone build a remotely decent PC "for a quarter of the price."

Why would you need graphics card? You are just passing video, you are not encoding/decoding/rendering video. You are only decoding/routing audio (and only with bitstream signals).

 

[DLS79]

That is what I am after too. I can pickup my sources, I can pickup my amps, I can pickup my speakers, I can pickup my EQs, I can pickup my room correction etc. But I still prefer to have the switch that connect all this together. I could really use a setup that:

1. has a source that output bitstream through hdmi
2. that is connected to central volume/source switch that can talk CEC (and has analog/digital/hdmi inputs - no analog video switching needed)
3. that is connected to bitstream decoder/pass through that outputs LPCM/analog/AES
4. that is connected to room correction
5. that is connected to subwoofer that does the cross-over
6. that is connected to main power amplifiers
7. that is connected to main speakers

But of course (some of) these kind of separates are quite hard to find, yet in any affordable price. Thus I am ok with combining something in the second (as the market is almost already doing that). Alternative but less user friendly is to build separate paths and equipment for music and video.

The one guy I know does it with an old pc, and a wireless macro keyboard.

 

[rj2wells]

Not for everyone. I would still love to have central piece what acts like a network switch for sources (analog/phono and digital and hdmi, perhaps wireless) and does decoding/room correction/routing for all of them and can be operated with one remote/cec. Yes, they are dead for broader audience, but just like vinyl died, it kinda survived. AVRs should be at this point designed for "pros" and not for average joes, that don't buy them anyway.

The problem is that these days for most people ALL the sources are streaming. Even when they have local content they are streaming it over their own WiFi from a local media server on their network.

People don't use blueray and phono is extremely niche, so a Smart TV that can stream their content is all they need, or they have a single source like a Roku that connects to the TV and streams all their content.

High quality surround sound is likely still going to be something some people want, but they no longer need the AVR to act as the switch. Their streaming device is the switch and the real impact of the AVR is that there is an annoying additional remote that they have to search for.

 

[Chromatischism]

your argument that you would buy a AV receiver with the amps cut out... ie. an AV preamp... AND it should be the same price or even less is not a new thing

i remember the same stuff being discussed 20yrs ago at the height of 5.1 ac3/dts receivers

but the market seems to disagree... even here i remember robust discussion about the Marantz Cinema 50/70 which allegedly has the ability to disable the amps... the question posed to Marantz is why not cut out the amps and sell it for less?

the avg. person here flatly does not want amps on board when you can easily get good digital amps for very little money.

But it has been surmised that Marantz wants to preserve the hierarchy of their AV Processors - you want no amps -> pay more!

And so I have doubts the Chinese will make much inroads into this segment.

I have to believe that the current players have already done their market research and have arrived at their current catalogue based on what sells and what is cost effective to produce. If they have left a hole, it will be filled.

 

[DLS79]

The problem is that these days for most people ALL the sources are streaming. Even when they have local content they are streaming it over their own WiFi from a local media server on their network.

Yea and that's part of a larger global trend. Your average person needs fewer devices than ever before.

When you set aside desktops and laptops purchased for school, work, and gaming, you will see sales has dropped a lot over the last decade. Most people just don't need the processing power anymore available in a modern machine. They can happily get by with a phone or a tablet. That's why Samsung has DEX, and Google has started working on their own equivalent of DEX.

The monitor market is even starting to see the impact of it. People can just plug a mini pc, phone or tablet into an actual tv and use it just like a computer.

 

[Vacceo]

Imo, It's because AVR's are outdated/ dying tech.

Modern smart tvs have a lot of inputs now, and have had ARC & eARC out for a while now. You can already by cheap adapters to to go from ARC/eARC to optical or coax.

imo, what we should really be asking is when will DACSs have hdmi/ARC/eARC in, and when will support for greater than 2.1 become more common.

I guess at some point we´ll see some kind of "expandeable" soundbar. Perhaps a system that uses wisa or RJ45 cables to increase channels. That could be possible with AES modified for a plug and play installation.

Yea and that's part of a larger global trend. Your average person needs fewer devices than ever before.

When you set aside desktops and laptops purchased for school, work, and gaming, you will see sales has dropped a lot over the last decade. Most people just don't need the processing power anymore available in a modern machine. They can happily get by with a phone or a tablet. That's why Samsung has DEX, and Google has started working on their own equivalent of DEX.

The monitor market is even starting to see the impact of it. People can just plug a mini pc, phone or tablet into an actual tv and use it just like a computer.

Gaming is currently the largest entertainment industry in the world. And if you want to play with a decent quality, you need a console or a relatively expensive PC. I think that environment should be the target of multichannel systems due to size and variety of users.

 

[DLS79]

I guess at some point we´ll see some kind of "expandeable" soundbar. Perhaps a system that uses wisa or RJ45 cables to increase channels. That could be possible with AES modified for a plug and play installation.


Gaming is currently the largest entertainment industry in the world. And if you want to play with a decent quality, you need a console or a relatively expensive PC. I think that environment should be the target of multichannel systems due to size and variety of users.

One of the pros I know works for a AAA company. We've talked about it a few times (I'm not a gamer), and he said not a lot of emphasis is put on anything above 2.0, because so many people play online with headsets. He's said even though a lot of them say they are 5.1 etc, it's more of a marketing talking point than anything else.

 

[Vacceo]

One of the pros I know works for a AAA company. We've talked about it a few times (I'm not a gamer), and he said not a lot of emphasis is put on anything above 2.0, because so many people play online with headsets. He's said even though a lot of them say they are 5.1 etc, it's more of a marketing talking point than anything else.

As many other entertainment products, it´s a matter of advertising to make it more popular. When properly implemented, such as The Last of Us, multichannel on games is quite a spectacle.

 

[DLS79]

As many other entertainment products, it´s a matter of advertising to make it more popular. When properly implemented, such as The Last of Us, multichannel on games is quite a spectacle.

Maybe, but if people are all using headsets so they can talk to each other, its going to be a hard sell.

 

[mhardy6647]

first of all, AVRs are NOT a growth industry... there's a whole host of reasons why people just arent getting into 7.2 and more systems

Which makes one wonder about the future of Atmos and its ilk, eh?

 

[DMill]

I would love to see someone release a true 3.1 AVR. I think it's a huge gap in the market and an opportunity for a cheaper entry, smaller amp

I suspect lots of people are willing to put LCR speakers around their TV but do not have/want to pull their sofa off the wall, install anything on their ceiling or stick surrounds in the middle of their living room floor.

3.1 is a big improvement over 2 or 2.1 in my opinion. Maybe no one else's. Definitely a huge improvement over a sound bar which is basically 3.1

I ran 3.1 for years when I lived in an apartment with limited space. AVR does a good job of mixing the surround signal into the fronts.

Interesting. I personally would love to just see a perfect 5.1 or 7.1. Thats as Many speakers as most people are ever going to put in domestic settings. Instead they continue to compromise absolute fidelity and keep adding channels most don’t need Rather than using better DACs and amps.

 

[Vacceo]

Interesting. I personally would love to just see a perfect 5.1 or 7.1. Thats as Many speakers as most people are ever going to put in domestic settings. Instead they continue to compromise absolute fidelity and keep adding channels most don’t need Rather than using better DACs and amps.

Considering how Denon has made relatively affordable and performing AVR´s, I´m not so sure about the quality of DAC´s and amps. Of course if you want really high performance gear you´ll have to spend several thousands just in electronics, but it is also possible to have a fairly clean multichannel setup for not so much.

 

[DLS79]

Which makes one wonder about the future of Atmos and its ilk, eh?

Honestly imo, a lot of the licensed formats are nothing but a sales & marketing {inappropriate term for general internet consumption} by tech companies making up stuff to sell to consumers who don't know any better.

 

[ban25]

One of the pros I know works for a AAA company. We've talked about it a few times (I'm not a gamer), and he said not a lot of emphasis is put on anything above 2.0, because so many people play online with headsets. He's said even though a lot of them say they are 5.1 etc, it's more of a marketing talking point than anything else.

Spatial audio in games is mixed at runtime with attenuation computed by the audio engine (e.g. Audiokinetic Wwise). The game's audio is then encoded and output by the system, so potentially in PCM for Sony Tempest ambisonics (with HRTF applied for their 3d headsets) or Atmos (supported on both Xbox and PS5). This is a long way of saying that games don't need to do anything special to target multichannel formats.

 

[rj2wells]

Interesting. I personally would love to just see a perfect 5.1 or 7.1. Thats as Many speakers as most people are ever going to put in domestic settings. Instead they continue to compromise absolute fidelity and keep adding channels most don’t need Rather than using better DACs and amps.

Today I'm where you are, I moved to a house, I have a dedicated TV room and it's big enough I can pull the sofa off the wall and there is just enough space to have surrounds in a good location. I'm now focused on improving the sound, next step on that journey being room improvements.

But a couple years ago I lived in a small apartment in the city core, my living room served multiple purposes and there was simply nowhere to put surrounds and the sofa wasn't going to move off the wall - other uses of the room were a priority over HT.

I suspect many people live with those constraints and put their TV wherever they can, rather then designing a room for HT. Lots probably just using the TV itself for audio or else if they want to upgrade the sound they get a soundbar, maybe one that comes with a wireless subwoofer, and call it a day

But even a pricey soundbar can't match what you can get from a pair of proper speakers, if for no other reason than you can put the speakers further apart and create a proper sound stage. Add a center and a sub and anything with even a 5" woofer for LR and it's a huge step up from a soundbar, for potentially not much more money.

Plus buying high quality speakers gives you an upgrade path. If one day you move to a house, like I did, the bookshelf speakers that used to be your LR become your surrounds and you invest in a pair of towers. Ok, at that point you needed a full AVR.

But what if you could spend $200 for a little starter 3.1 AVR, invest your money instead in some good bookshelves, get yourself a nice sub?

That's a good place to start, and maybe for a lot of people all they will ever really need.

ETA - Plus they probably only have ONE input, either their Smart TV itself, or a streaming device like a Roku. Their "AVR" might not even need HDMI if it can do 3.1 or 5.1 from TOSLINK, or it has an HDMI that is a straight pass through from their steamer, except it splits out the audio.

 

[DLS79]

Spatial audio in games is mixed at runtime with attenuation computed by the audio engine (e.g. Audiokinetic Wwise). The game's audio is then encoded and output by the system, so potentially in PCM for Sony Tempest ambisonics (with HRTF applied for their 3d headsets) or Atmos (supported on both Xbox and PS5). This is a long way of saying that games don't need to do anything special to target multichannel formats.

I know what spatial audio is , any you can find people all over the internet complaining about it. The only people I regularly see being happy with it, are the people trying to make money off of it.

 

[DMill]

But what if you could spend $200 ka starter 3.1 AVR, invest in some good bookshelves, get yourself a nice sub?

I agree. Build a better solution for most living spaces. in truth separates are probably the way to go.

 

[mhardy6647]

Honestly imo, a lot of the licensed formats are nothing but a sales & marketing {inappropriate term for general internet consumption} by tech companies making up stuff to sell to consumers who don't know any better.

You're preachin' to the choir, sir.