Why no cheap AVRs from Topping / SMSL etc.

[TonyJZX]

first of all, AVRs are NOT a growth industry... there's a whole host of reasons why people just arent getting into 7.2 and more systems

2ndly... SMSL Topping etc. cater to a Chinese audience... who of us can comment on whether a Chinese audiences cares much for 7.2 systems

3rdly, Trad AVR makers arent doing all that well... notice Onkyo and Pioneer etc. - and this flows onto B&M companies... I notice that many electronics retailers are getting out of AVRs and the whole home theater fad... bluetooth pills are cool, so are soundbars

4th, AVRs are now so complex with so much licensing and streaming and online and... as a result have rapid obsolescence...

to me i'm come to a point that I dont really care all that much for modern 'cinema' as an artform... i dont particular care to engage hollywood etc for 2.5 hrs at a time

i do like 'classic' cinema but even to me, i think i may have bought my last 7.2 atmos receiver... and this was only because it was like on closeout for 1/3rd of the retail price.

 

[delta76]

They all have to start somewhere. These brands (Fosi / Wiim / Eversolo) are already famous and with YouTube marketing it's not an impossible task. One year ago Eversolo was relatively unknown in the "audiophile" circles. They have disrupted the streamer market for sure with a competitively priced product. I think it can be done and it will be. Just a matter of time. I wouldn't be surprised if Eversolo or Wiim comes up with something like this.

PS: Schiit came up with 5.1 surround processor last year. Pretty barebones but a good start.

Schiit Audio: Audio Products Designed and Built in Texas and California

www.schiit.com

Famous to whom? they are still pretty unknown brands outside of "audio enthusiasts".
because of you know them does not mean every potential buyer knows (and more importantly, trusts) them
and it seems you underestimated the complexity of an AVR.
let's put it like this: how many products SMSL alone pushed out in 2023? now, if they can, technically, and if they think they can make a profitable AVR, why didn't they? it is because either they couldn't, or they can't make a good balance sheet, or both.

 

[jaakkopetteri]

Smaller companies like Nubert and Canton have no problem making products like these almost solely for the German market, so it's not just about economics of scale. I'm sure even the "objective audiophile" market is internationally larger than that.

MiniDSP did mention that HDMI chip MOQs are 10k or more and those have zero flexibility with everything baked in, so they'd have to start from scratch. So in a sense it is about scale, but not purely due to economy

Appears that Schiit Syn is one of those devices. It can do 5.1 via Optical in, just add amps.

Are you sure it can do 5.1? I only see mentions of it synthetizing surround out of stereo

 

[bungle]

Appears that Schiit Syn is one of those devices. It can do 5.1 via Optical in, just add amps.

I don't think it has dolby digital or dts decoders, does it?

 

[bungle]

No way around software needing chips to run it. Going to a general purpose CPU probably won't save money.

A lot of things can be programmed these days. And well, processors needed to decode dolby digital / dts probably cost almost nothing. Implementation might cost some, but I am sure there is open source code already available (a quick googling shows there are plenty of options, also commercial ones like this https://www.ittiam.com/product/audio-codecs/).

Here people did it with FPGA: https://liu.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1088539/FULLTEXT01.pdf

Let's remember that for a price of capable modern AVR you get really beefy computer. You still get crazy fast computer for quarter of price. And yes, that computer can do DD decoding on software for around 0.x CPU usage.

 

[delta76]

A lot of things can be programmed these days. And well, processors needed to decode dolby digital / dts probably cost almost nothing. Implementation might cost some, but I am sure there is open source code already available (a quick googling shows there are plenty of options, also commercial ones like this https://www.ittiam.com/product/audio-codecs/).

Here people did it with FPGA: https://liu.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1088539/FULLTEXT01.pdf

Let's remember that for a price of capable modern AVR you get really beefy computer. You still get crazy fast computer for quarter of price. And yes, that computer can do DD decoding on software for around 0.x CPU usage.

what's about amplification? software? licensing?
what's about power usage?
we live in a free, competitive market. if you haven't seen a product in the market, it's simply not feasible/profitable doing so. Everyone can have idea. Feasible ideas are rare. Profitable ideas are even rarer. The manufacturers have some of the best audio engineers in the world and I can be sure they already thought of it. Trinov for example is a pc in disguise. See how much their AVP costs.

 

[bungle]

what's about amplification? software? licensing?

Amplification (and in case of digital, the analog conversion) can be done easily after we have analog or digital (AES/LPCM) out. It can happen in external amplifier, powered speakers etc. I would love to have AVRs without amplification. Possibly with balanced analog out. I have powered speakers.

Software / licensing. Many streamers are already computers.

what's about power usage?

(Audio) Electronics don't use power almost at all. Compared to anything that is used for heating. And well, heat from electronics in many cases just goes to heating apartment/house, so it does not get lost. Unless of course you need to cool your apartment/house. But that is minor.

we live in a free, competitive market. if you haven't seen a product in the market, it's simply not feasible/profitable doing so. Everyone can have idea. Feasible ideas are rare. Profitable ideas are even rarer. The manufacturers have some of the best audio engineers in the world and I can be sure they already thought of it. Trinov for example is a pc in disguise. See how much their AVP costs.

Needs are different. Market tries to find kinda "one size fits all, all in one" type of solution. That is currently powered soundbars connected to TV. That doesn't say there are no other markets. E.g. here we constantly see DACs compared, while they have already been state-of-art for very long (it is done deal, nothing to innovate or better, expect what we just talk about). What is feasible / profitable is unknown. Many parameters affect that. Such as marketing etc. E.g. I would buy any current mid price AVR if they just removed the amplification and added XLR outs. And I am not alone. Many of us use powered speakers like Genelec, Neumann etc. Practically all wireless speakers are also powered, almost all subwoofers are powered, those soundbars are powered. Why they still insist putting amplification on AVR, that I don't fully understand. Yes, they do release expensive top-of-the-line models without amplification. AVR market going down may leave a void to be filled, that is not a soundbar. We had much more variety in the old days than today. So there was a market, but then it got consolidated and now we don't have variety anymore as much. Or competition.

Audio market is basically split to analog stereo 2.0 and soundbars/avr-atmos (for 2.1 and onwards -> usually starts from 5.1, and ending somewhere like 9.4.6, and as said most of us struggle to get even beyond 2.1, but we would still like to enjoy the movie 0.1 channel).

 

[delta76]

Amplification (and in case of digital, the analog conversion) can be done easily after we have analog or digital (AES/LPCM) out. It can happen in external amplifier, powered speakers etc. I would love to have AVRs without amplification. Possibly with balanced analog out. I have powered speakers.



(Audio) Electronics don't use power almost at all. Compared to anything that is used for heating. And well, heat from electronics in many cases just goes to heating apartment/house, so it does not get lost. Unless of course you need to cool your apartment/house. But that is minor.


Needs are different. Market tries to find kinda "one size fits all, all in one" type of solution. That is currently powered soundbars connected to TV. That doesn't say there are no other markets. E.g. here we constantly see DACs compared, while they have already been state-of-art for very long (it is done deal, nothing to innovate or better, expect what we just talk about). What is feasible / profitable is unknown. Many parameters affect that. Such as marketing etc. E.g. I would buy any current mid price AVR if they just removed the amplification and added XLR outs. And I am not alone. Many of us use powered speakers like Genelec, Neumann etc. Practically all wireless speakers are also powered, almost all subwoofers are powered, those soundbars are powered. Why they still insist putting amplification on AVR, that I don't fully understand. Yes, they do release expensive top-of-the-line models without amplification. AVR market going down may leave a void to be filled, that is not a soundbar. We had much more variety in the old days than today. So there was a market, but then it got consolidated and now we don't have variety anymore as much. Or competition.

Audio market is basically split to analog stereo 2.0 and soundbars/avr-atmos (for 2.1 and onwards -> usually starts from 5.1).

AVP is a much niche market than AVR which itself is a niche market than soundbar.
you are trying to justify your thoughts of an ideal product. yes that can be done. but it cannot be done cheaply enough to be competitive, and even more importantly, to be profitable. That is a critically important point. manufacturers try to "one size fits all" solution because that's when their profit is maximized

 

[TonyJZX]

your argument that you would buy a AV receiver with the amps cut out... ie. an AV preamp... AND it should be the same price or even less is not a new thing

i remember the same stuff being discussed 20yrs ago at the height of 5.1 ac3/dts receivers

but the market seems to disagree... even here i remember robust discussion about the Marantz Cinema 50/70 which allegedly has the ability to disable the amps... the question posed to Marantz is why not cut out the amps and sell it for less?

the avg. person here flatly does not want amps on board when you can easily get good digital amps for very little money.

But it has been surmised that Marantz wants to preserve the hierarchy of their AV Processors - you want no amps -> pay more!

And so I have doubts the Chinese will make much inroads into this segment.

 

[bungle]

yes that can be done. but it cannot be done cheaply enough to be competitive, and even more importantly, to be profitable.

MiniDSP Flex HTx is almost there.

1. good measuring
2. balanced in/out
3. HDMI earc
4. opt/coax digital in
5. support for LPCM
6. room correction

What it misses is DD/DTS bitstream decoding. How much could you ask for that? 1.5x / 2x the price? It could use a more HDMI ports to act as a source switch, but that can be done outside too. It costs 949 USD. ToneWinner AT-300 is another (has balanced outs and decoders and HDMI switching), Nubert has nuXinema preAV, Canton has Smart Connect / Smart Amp.

 

[delta76]

MiniDSP Flex HTx is almost there.

1. good measuring
2. balanced in/out
3. HDMI earc
4. opt/coax digital in
5. support for LPCM
6. room correction

What it misses is DD/DTS bitstream decoding. How much could you ask for that? 1.5x / 2x the price? It could use a more HDMI ports to act as a source switch, but that can be done outside too. It costs 949 USD.

You still don't get it do you? Denon x3800h at same price has everything except balanced input/output, and
- DTS/DD/Atmos/Auro3D
- Video processing including 4k/8k/HDR (DV/HLG)
- Multiple HDMI inputs

how can your Flex HTx compete with that except for a small number of audio enthusiasts? How do you expect average Joe to figure out what need to "be done outside"?
Don't underestimate the importance of simplicity.

If you want to be cheap, you need economy of scale. if you want utilize economy of scale, you need a product that appeal to large audience. You are taking a very niche product and wonder why we don't have more of that. because there is no (large enough) market for that

 

[jaakkopetteri]

but the market seems to disagree... even here i remember robust discussion about the Marantz Cinema 50/70 which allegedly has the ability to disable the amps... the question posed to Marantz is why not cut out the amps and sell it for less?

Is that the market disagreeing or one of the biggest manufacturers mostly just acting up after spending decades on class AB amps and bulky enclosures?

how can your Flex HTx compete with that except for a small number of audio enthusiasts? How do you expect average Joe to figure out what need to "be done outside"?
Don't underestimate the importance of simplicity.

It seems to me that you're the one underestimating simplicity. There are tons of people willing to spend more just to have an AVR that actually fits in the average media console.

You are taking a very niche product and wonder why we don't have more of that. because there is no (large enough) market for that

How are Nubert/Canton able to do it fairly succesfully?

 

[bungle]

Don't underestimate the importance of simplicity.

Yes, just remove the amps and make it measure better. Make it simpler yes. Add balanced outs (or sell one with balanced outs double the price) and remove the RCA preouts. And call it done and get the money. A much better product than the current one. And average joes are not buying current one either. They want that soundbar. Preferrably just plug it to power outlet and start listening.

 

[DLS79]

Chinese companies like Topping / SMSL / Sabaj etc. make excellent DACs, streamers, amps, power supplies, etc. They measure and sound excellent. These are building blocks for stereo integrated amps, stereo / surround sound receivers. So why would these companies not put together their DACs/Amps in one big box to build a decent 100W per channel integrated amp with HDMI or even a full 9.2 channel AVR with same wattage? A Fosi ZA3 monoblock capable amp sells for $130 retail with all the packaging and power supply. Wondering if they can come up with a sub $1000 AVR made from their own parts.

Imo, It's because AVR's are outdated/ dying tech.

Modern smart tvs have a lot of inputs now, and have had ARC & eARC out for a while now. You can already by cheap adapters to to go from ARC/eARC to optical or coax.

imo, what we should really be asking is when will DACSs have hdmi/ARC/eARC in, and when will support for greater than 2.1 become more common.

 

[delta76]

Yes, just remove the amps and make it measure better. Make it simpler yes. Add balanced outs (or sell one with balanced outs double the price) and remove the RCA preouts. And call it done and get the money. A much better product than the current one. And average joes are not buying current one either. They want that soundbar. Preferrably just plug it to power outlet and start listening.

easier said than done.

 

[bungle]

Imo, It's because AVR's are outdated/ dying tech.

Not for everyone. I would still love to have central piece what acts like a network switch for sources (analog/phono and digital and hdmi, perhaps wireless) and does decoding/room correction/routing for all of them and can be operated with one remote/cec. Yes, they are dead for broader audience, but just like vinyl died, it kinda survived. AVRs should be at this point designed for "pros" and not for average joes, that don't buy them anyway.

 

[darrellc]

I think most normal people buy soundbars. In US, walk into a Costco or Walmart or BestBuy and you see soundbars everywhere. On the consumer electronics websites I see lots of reviews of soundbars, few AVRs. Non audiophiles I know buy soundbars. AVRs and a bunch of speakers are too complicated to install and setup and the form factor too large to blend in to non-dedicated, mixed use spaces.

 

[bungle]

AVRs should be at this point designed for "pros" and not for average joes, that don't buy them anyway.

At one point Denon actually did that:
https://www.denonpro.com/index.php/products/view3/dn-700av (with amps and balanced preouts)
https://www.denonpro.com/index.php/products/view3/dn-700avp (with 2 x preouts - both balanced and non-balanced)

And guess what, they cost under 1000 USD and both similarly priced.

 

[bungle]

easier said than done.

They (the big ones) have all the knowledge and tools and software/hardware and licenses to do that. Just take a small risk and see how it works out (doesn't hurt much to add one in this list: https://www.denon.com/en-us/category/av-receivers/ that nobody even understands why there even are so many). Smaller ones seem to popout here and there. A couple years ago it was uncommon to see eARC in DACs, but they are now coming from many (also the big ones are adding it to their stereo lineup, heck expand stereo lineup with 2.1 decoding capabilities or something).

 

[DLS79]

Not for everyone. I would still love to have central piece what acts like a network switch for sources (analog/phono and digital and hdmi, perhaps wireless) and does decoding/room correction/routing for all of them and can be operated with one remote/cec. Yes, they are dead for broader audience, but just like vinyl died, it kinda survived. AVRs should be at this point designed for "pros" and not for average joes, that don't buy them anyway.

I know a few "Pros" and they are moving away from AVRs. In general they don't want one ring to rule them all , they want to pick and choose as they see fit.