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Why make high impedance loudspeakers?

delta76

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Amplifiers usually have significantly lower output for 8ohm than 4ohm. It almost feels like manufacturers have a (small) incentive to make 4ohm speakers - theirs would be easier to drive even with existing amplifiers.
Why would manufacturers still make 8ohm speakers? Any benefits for higher impedance in design ?
 

sergeauckland

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Several benefits:-

Lower current requirements that make it easier for less than stellar amplifiers to drive.

Better damping factor, albeit of marginal benefit with modern amplifiers where the output impedance is very low.

A known standard, as less knowledgeable buyers expect to see an 8 ohm rating - this encourages manufacturers to still make what should have been rated as 4 ohms, but call them 8 ohms for marketing reasons.

Those of us of a certain age will remember that 8 ohms is a relatively modern rating. In the 1950s and early 1960s, 3 & 15 ohms were the norm.

S.
 

alex-z

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Impedance isn't a fixed number. Lets say you have a class AB amp, and 4 Ohm speaker with a large phase swing. The EPDR could be 2 Ohms or lower, and many amps struggle to run those high current loads. Either due to insufficient power supply, or cooling.
 

Katji

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Those of us of a certain age will remember that 8 ohms is a relatively modern rating. In the 1950s and early 1960s, 3 & 15 ohms were the norm.
Slightly lower age, early 1970s, 8 Ohm spec. rating of speakers and amplifiers W RMS is the norm. (I think of people of SF/Woodstock/etc. as "older brother' generation", and an older 2nd cousin with valve radios in his basement workshop. I think I only noticed the 16 ohm speakers when I saw them on internet many years later.)
 

tomtoo

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First we should not forget that doubling the power between 4 and 8 ohm sounds much, but is not realy much. If iam not wrong? its 3dB. Not much.
Lowering impedance gets fast expensive, easy said a lot more copper in the amp, the xover, the cooling rips, the printed boards.
 

tomtoo

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First we should not forget that doubling the power between 4 and 8 ohm sounds much, but is not realy much. If iam not wrong? its 3dB. Not much.
Lowering impedance gets fast expensive, easy said a lot more copper in the amp, the xover, heatsinks, the printed boards.....
 

tomtoo

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Slightly lower age, early 1970s, 8 Ohm spec. rating of speakers and amplifiers W RMS is the norm. (I think of people of SF/Woodstock/etc. as "older brother' generation", and an older 2nd cousin with valve radios in his basement workshop. I think I only noticed the 16 ohm speakers when I saw them on internet many years later.)

The tube amps love high impedance.
 

tomtoo

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But modern class d can change that a littel. They scale not so much in copper used vs. output current. And new PA class d amps have no problem to drive 2ohm.
 

sergeauckland

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The tube amps love high impedance.
I think that's the reason why 8 ohm loudspeakers only came to be once SS amplifiers became common. 15/16 ohm loudspeakers required the voltages to be higher than Germanium transistors could comfortably handle, and 3 ohm loudspeakers required too much current.

This gets me thinking why in the 1950s and early 1960s, loudspeakers were available as 3 & 15 ohms. The 15 ohms makes sense in terms of the valve amplifiers of the era, but can't understand the reason for 3 ohm loudspeakers. I know that output transformers can be tapped for any impedance, but 3 ohms isn't ideal for a valve amp.


S.
 

mhardy6647

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Actually, and I am sure many here know this, it wasn't uncommon for early (ish) ss amplifiers in lower-priced consumer electronics (e.g., record players, consoles) to have rather odd (by modern standard) loudspeaker load impedances. I had an RCA 'suitcase' style record player as a kid, e.g., that used 45 ohm speakers.

The 4 vs. 8 ohm thing with power always struck me as a numbers game -- and, in fact, was common in the late '60s/early '70s (pre-FTC regulations, in the US_ gambit to double the power spec on a component without actually lying outright. Stereo power output (i.e., 2x the mono number) was also commonly cited.

Here's a non-entirely random example, from Lafayette Radio Electronics (LRE).



"80 watts (stereo) into 4 ohms" i.e., divide by four... and still no guarantee that these would be "continuous watts" ;)
 

tomtoo

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I think that's the reason why 8 ohm loudspeakers only came to be once SS amplifiers became common. 15/16 ohm loudspeakers required the voltages to be higher than Germanium transistors could comfortably handle, and 3 ohm loudspeakers required too much current.

This gets me thinking why in the 1950s and early 1960s, loudspeakers were available as 3 & 15 ohms. The 15 ohms makes sense in terms of the valve amplifiers of the era, but can't understand the reason for 3 ohm loudspeakers. I know that output transformers can be tapped for any impedance, but 3 ohms isn't ideal for a valve amp.


S.

Dont know, we have also take into account the voice coils and xovers of the speakers. To be honest, amp, voice coils, xovers, magnets is a not a so easy system. Deciding whats the best impedance for the system needs some brain. Another thing is, that you usually like to have the voltage on the speakecrabels in a consumer friendly region. 220V on the speaker cables, needs some thinking on safety. In other words, where ever we go in speaker impedance is driven by a lot of influences. And not if a amp can do the double of power at 4 or 8 ohms.
 
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mhardy6647

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Here's a better example, with something of a "Rosetta Stone" collection of power specs just ahead of FTC '74.
source: https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Catalogs/Lafayette-Catalogs/Lafayette-1973.pdf

1657544580442.png


1657544763789.png


Here's the LR-220's denouement , post FTC: 4 wpc :)

source: https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Catalogs/Lafayette-Catalogs/Lafayette-1975-750.pdf

This receiver has a "quad" (4-channel) amplifier, but the various inflationary claims for what I would call a "5.5 watt" (into 8 ohms) power amp output are fairly clearly spelled out (sans frequency response at "full power").

Oh, and speaking of high impedance loads --the other way to skin the "output transformerless (OTL) vacuum tube amplifier" cat, this approach has been used a few times over the decades, perhaps most notably by Philips.
Here's an example from Stephens Trusonic. :)

1657545010906.png

 

pjug

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Amplifiers usually have significantly lower output for 8ohm than 4ohm. It almost feels like manufacturers have a (small) incentive to make 4ohm speakers - theirs would be easier to drive even with existing amplifiers.
Why would manufacturers still make 8ohm speakers? Any benefits for higher impedance in design ?
I am not sure how true to assume sensitivity is better with 4 ohm speakers as a general rule. Do you know of a good survey of this? My 8 ohm stand mount Ushers are 86.5dB, in line with a lot of 4 ohm standmounts.
 

mhardy6647

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I am not sure how true to assume sensitivity is better with 4 ohm speakers as a general rule. Do you know of a good survey of this? My 8 ohm stand mount Ushers are 86.5dB, in line with a lot of 4 ohm standmounts.
The most sensitive loudspeakers here are nominally 16 ohm (at about 104 dB per watt @ 1 meter)

Oh, one final thought from me, on the actual topic of this thread :)
There's all of this well-intentioned chatter about amplifiers & loads -- do we want a power amp that's a true voltage source, or a current source? I'd say the simple answer is yes. :) "We" want an amplifier that will look at any load imposed upon it, smile and say "I got this. Here, hold my beer and watch this." :cool:
 

RayDunzl

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My speakers are 4 ohm unless you remove the biwire jumper then the low and higher frequency sections measure 8 ohms each with an ohmmeter.
 

RayDunzl

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do we want a power amp that's a true voltage source, or a current source?

The recorded signal is voltage, not current.

To be a current source into a varying impedance, would seem to imply messing with the voltage applied to the load, in my under-educated opinion.

I don't see where that would be advantageous.

If the load were steady across all frequencies, then, maybe.
 

DVDdoug

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2-Ohm woofers/subwoofers are somewhat common in cars where voltage is limited and sometimes they are run in parallel for 1-Ohm. But high-power car amplifiers have a built-in DC-DC voltage booster so they aren't actually limited to 12V internally.

Most car speakers are 4-Ohms whereas most home speakers are 8-Ohms.

With 8-Ohms, a "regular" amplifier, an a 12V power supply, the maximum you can theoretically get is 12V peak-to peak = 4.3VRMS, and that works-out to 2.3 Watts. With a bridge amplifier (one terminal going positive while the other goes negative and no ground to the speaker) you can get 24-peak-to-peak for 4 times the power. Then if you switch to a 4-Ohm speaker you can double the power again for about 18W. There is some voltage drop in the amplifier so you can't get the full-theoretical voltage so that works against you, but a "12V" car battery puts-out more like 14.4V and you can get more from the alternator while the engine is running so that goes in your favor.

Distributed speaker systems (like in supermarkets) are often a special kind of constant voltage system where each speaker has a transformer with multiple power taps (so you don't know the impedance unless you calculate it). All of the speakers are wired in parallel and in a small-quiet location you use a low-power tap, and in a larger or noisier location you can use a higher-power tap. You can run as many speakers as you want as long as you don't exceed the amplifier's power rating. Occasionally, there might be a transformer with a rotary switch on the wall to control the volume of an individual speaker (maybe in a lunch room).

A161430A.jpg


do we want a power amp that's a true voltage source, or a current source?
Speakers are designed, tested, and specified with a constant voltage source.

If you look at an impedance curve for a speaker, the impedance varies a lot across the frequency range and with a current source those impedance variations would result in proportional frequency response variations and the speaker would sound terrible! (The impedance variations do result in (inverse) power variations but we don't care as long as the audio output is flat.)

Something like this sometimes happens with headphone amplifiers if the source impedance is too high but it's not pure current source.


-------------------------------------
High power LEDs are driven by a constant-current source.* It's an odd kind of power supply - You can short the output and you get (nearly) zero voltage as it happily maintains the output current. If you disconnect the load the voltage just goes as high as that particular supply can go as it tries to push current through an infinite resistance.

If you short a regular power supply (or a speaker output) you get excess current and it shuts down, or blows a fuse, or burns-up...

Like all diodes LEDs are non-linear and their resistance drops drastically as the voltage goes up. If you slightly exceed the specified forward operating voltage the current increases drastically and they burn-up. If you're slightly below the operating voltage the current drops more than proportionally and the LED is too dim. By controlling the current, the voltage "magically falls into place". You can wire multiple LEDs in parallel and with constant current they all light-up normally just like regular light bulbs in parallel from a normal constant voltage power supply.



* Regular little LEDs just use a series "current limiting" resistor. The voltage drop across the resistor is usually equal to the LED voltage, or higher. So usually as much, or more power is wasted in the resistor as is used by the LED. That's OK with a fraction of a watt but not with LEDs used for lighting.
 
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DVDdoug

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Amplifiers usually have significantly lower output for 8ohm than 4ohm.
If the amplifier has a well-regulated power supply (the power supply stays constant), and if the power supply and output MOSFETs (or transistors) can handle the power, you can get twice the power at 4-Ohms.

Sometimes you can get double the current short-term power on the program peaks, but with longer term continuous power the power supply voltage droops, or the power supply or output stage may overheat and if you are lucky there will be thermal shutdown circuitry that protects it from burning-out.

Note that the output-voltage (and power) will hold-up as long as you're not clipping. If a 100W power is running at 10W with an 8-Ohm speaker and you switch to a 4-Ohm speaker (or if you wire another 8-Ohm speaker in parallel) you WILL get 20W. But with the 4-Ohm speaker it might start clipping at 150W (or whatever) so you wouldn't get double the maximum power...

Resistance (and impedance) is "the resistance to current flow". With lower impedance you get proportionally more current (if the voltage stays constant). Ohm's law defines the relationship between voltage, resistance, and current as Current = Voltage/Resistance.

Power is calculated as Voltage X Current so doubling the current doubles the power.

On the other hand, doubling the source voltage (while leaving the same load resistance) also doubles the current and you get 4 times the power.
 

mhardy6647

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Like all diodes LEDs are non-linear and their resistance drops drastically as the voltage goes up. If you slightly exceed the specified forward operating voltage the current increases drastically and they burn-up.
I discovered this empirically (and accidentally) a long time ago.
 
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