• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are daily reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Why does my music start sounding crappier once I go past 70db on my AVR ?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Chrispy

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 7, 2020
Messages
7,613
Likes
5,766
Location
PNW
70dB what?

He is looking at 70dB on the volume indicator, not on any SPL reading. On it's own it means nothing. His later "measurements" (using a phone app) are suggesting 95dB + SPL.

I've made this point at least 3 times now.
Didn't see your other posts. I assumed he meant an actual result....
 

dlaloum

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 4, 2021
Messages
3,004
Likes
2,316
Do you think that a amp like the Rotel A14 MII that actually has 20 watts less then my AVR TX-NR6100 that has 100W would handle the Polk R700 just fine ?

The Rotel does list its 4ohm capability as 150watts.
To get an idea of current capability (very rough rule of thumb) - look at how close it gets to doubling the 8ohm W rating when powering 4 ohm.... and then doubling again when powering 2 ohm (seldom rated sadly).

That Rotel, has about the same size power supply powering 2 channels as the NR6100 has powering 9 channels.

It's base power capability @8ohm is based on the amp circuits/transistors - the 4 ohm rating which pretty much doubles the 8ohm rating, shows it has no stability, or current issues....

So yes - reading "between the lines" of the spec, I would assume that the Rotel would handle difficult speakers where the NR6100 would not.

But I would definitely want an arrangement where you can try it out before committing.... or a return if not satisfied deal!

Note: one of the big advantages of AVR's when working as prepro's (ie: regradless of power amp) - is their ability to adjust the system to the room - they usually come with a RoomEQ system - where "purist" stereo components don't!! - they also provide active equalisation for subs - so you can take satellite / bookshelf speakers and configure them as full range with a good musical sub - without making it a "Home Theater" setup necessarily.
 

dlaloum

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 4, 2021
Messages
3,004
Likes
2,316
Yes, true 8ohm speakers (that don't have difficult phase angles, and or low impedance zones) are often very easy to drive and cheap amps will rock them.

There are a million ways to spec an amp and why different products are speced the way they are is impossible to condense or know.

As I mentioned earlier it takes DOUBLE the power just to gain 3db of output. The differenece between 80 and 100 and then 100 and 150 is not very meaningfull and is waste of your attention.

I posted a screen shot from part of the data sheet specs to your amp in a previous post.


Your amp is fine for now. It is THX certified which does actually mean something. It can handle 4ohm loads. You are only driving 2 speakers. They even rate it's dynamic power in 3ohms, meaning they are comfortable with you driving it hard.

Nobody here actually can really tell you that your AVR is weak. I honestly don't think it is. I am actually impressed with it's specs for the price. Yes it would be nice if actually doubled power from 8ohms to 4, even again down to 2ohms but almost no amps can do this.

Don't waste your cash on a Rotel. As much as I love ultra low distortion amps like the Hypex stuff folks have mentioned it will be a waste, 'me thinks. I would buy a super powerful Crown amp IF the AVR is not enough. Buy the Crown XLS 1502 or the 2002 and never worry about power ever.


Yes, they really make huge power and yes they sound great and they are efficient as well. They also almost double power from 8ohm-4ohm-20hm so you will never be short of dynamic capability. Don't waste cash on anything else "audiophile/audiofool' unless it has been reviewed by ASR and proven to be worth the money.

Also remember that your amp is really only running out of power in the bass, manly because the ELAC speakers are low sensitivity. Something like the 590's will be easier to drive to the same levels, it will be easier not harder due to the speaker having much higher sensitivity. It will take about around 1/4-1/2 the power to make the same SPL. Meaning your amp will be floating along. The larger speaker voice coils will also not be as hot meaning that compression will be potentially much lower.

In the meantime I think your amp will crush very well with something like the JBL 590's or the aformentioned KEF R11.
I don't believe the NR6100 has pre-outs.... and therefore no easy way of adding external power amps - The EU and Asian versions of the NR7100 have front L&R pre-outs (but not on North American models) - I don't know about the NR6100's.

The Crowns are excellent for difficult speakers - I run a pair of XLS2500's that have been on duty for more than 12 years now
 

dlaloum

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 4, 2021
Messages
3,004
Likes
2,316
Are you sure it doesn't?

View attachment 282170

From:

Spec sheet.

Admittedly it only specifies it at a rather useless 10%THD - but you can probably expect in the region of 160 to 180W at 1%
I have the Integra 3.4 - same amp section as the NR6100 & NR7100....

It really does not sound good with hard to drive 4ohm speakers

It sounded fine driving the same speakers through either a Crown XLS2500 or Quad 606 - both of which are totally fine driving speakers down to 1 ohm
 

ZolaIII

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
3,912
Likes
2,323
There's a lot to think about and I definitely some new things. At this point I'm not not sure what I will do. Getting sub sounds good too but I'm not sure I have the room. If you check the pic, there only one place I would like to have at and that would be where you see the cat5 cable going in the wall. Would that be a good spot to put a sub do you think. Is there a rule of thumb about subs needing so many inches around the back and side wall ?
Best placement (that you can do) for pair of sub's would be like this:
sketch-1682752840026.png
sketch-1682752887155.png
You might be able to pull it of with only one if you put it in the corner where box of Crunchy is as that would crunch it up 5~6 dB. Of course how good would it sound with only one depends on room mods (room influences which also get boost that way).
Once more you need to reed carefully AVR's manual for the subwoofer - speakers setting up and dig out it's microphone and let it's automatic room correction do it's work (which will help both EQ-ing response and dealing with room modes to the extent). Reward will be considerably better sound. No pain no gain.
 
OP
S

Seany

Active Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2023
Messages
124
Likes
56
Best placement (that you can do) for pair of sub's would be like this:
View attachment 282256
View attachment 282259
You might be able to pull it of with only one if you put it in the corner where box of Crunchy is as that would crunch it up 5~6 dB. Of course how good would it sound with only one depends on room mods (room influences which also get boost that way).
Once more you need to reed carefully AVR's manual for the subwoofer - speakers setting up and dig out it's microphone and let it's automatic room correction do it's work (which will help both EQ-ing response and dealing with room modes to the extent). Reward will be considerably better sound. No pain no gain.

Well first of all one in the back isn't going to work. If I get two they will both have to go beside the TV. It it really necessary to get two though is it a balance issue where I'll feel bass to much from the left side of the room ? My AVR does have two sub pre-outs on the back. Some of the posts make it seem complicated to set up a sub. Don't I just cut at 80/high pass filter in the AVR's settings and that's it ?
 
Last edited:

ZolaIII

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
3,912
Likes
2,323
Well first of all one in the back isn't going to work. If I get two they will both have to go beside the TV. It it really necessary to get two though is it a balance issue where I'll feel bass to much from the left side of the room ? My AVR does have two sub pre-outs on the back. Some of the posts make it seem complicated to set up a sub. Don't I just cut at 80/high pass filter in the AVR's settings and that's it ?
It's not that complicated to set up subwoofer especially in your case with fairly capable AVR regarding that.
Well other subwoofer is more for filling holes in the room of first one so it depends of the room. You adjust the main full range speakers/subwoofer (high/low pass) crossover points and match the output volume of the sub's and that's about it.
I mean you can run cable for a back one under the rug (hoping that's rug) and put it between shoe storage and other storage. That's best place for other one, it will work and with both in front. Bass tones are omnidirectional so you don't feel from where they are coming and there is little to no separation up to 80 Hz (and will work even set to 100 Hz). You can try with one sub first and then think about another one if you feel need or there is need for other one at all.
 
OP
S

Seany

Active Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2023
Messages
124
Likes
56
It's not that complicated to set up subwoofer especially in your case with fairly capable AVR regarding that.
Well other subwoofer is more for filling holes in the room of first one so it depends of the room. You adjust the main full range speakers/subwoofer (high/low pass) crossover points and match the output volume of the sub's and that's about it.
I mean you can run cable for a back one under the rug (hoping that's rug) and put it between shoe storage and other storage. That's best place for other one, it will work and with both in front. Bass tones are omnidirectional so you don't feel from where they are coming and there is little to no separation up to 80 Hz (and will work even set to 100 Hz). You can try with one sub first and then think about another one if you feel need or there is need for other one at all.

Okay I was getting confused with the 80% and the high pass filter I thought that was two different things, high pass filter other words just mean setting it at 80% then.
 

ZolaIII

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
3,912
Likes
2,323
@Seany
That's a crossover or Linkwitz Riley filter and it's used between any kind of two drivers in speakers. On the left that going down slope is low pass filter and on the right it's high pass filter. How much dB per octave they go down depends on speaker enclosure. So we use 12 dB slope or second order one's on close enclosure speakers and subwoofer's and we use 24 dB one or forth order on ported speakers/subwoofer's. Those are fairly simple filters and you do it just by setting crossover frequency for main full range speakers and subwoofer in AVR's settings menu. There is nothing more to it (of course you need to match subwoofer volume output to speakers one when doing calibration which you also won't do often). If you have friend who is more into it call him to come and show you (as that way it's very simple and much simpler than reading about it), have a drink and enjoy the music.
 

CDMC

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
1,172
Likes
2,316
Well first of all one in the back isn't going to work. If I get two they will both have to go beside the TV. It it really necessary to get two though is it a balance issue where I'll feel bass to much from the left side of the room ? My AVR does have two sub pre-outs on the back. Some of the posts make it seem complicated to set up a sub. Don't I just cut at 80/high pass filter in the AVR's settings and that's it ?

The reason he recommends the placement he does is it is most likely to result in smoothing of the bass frequencies. When you place the two subwoofers next to each other you lose that benefit. All rooms have what are termed modal frequencies which have the largest effect in the bass range. Put simply this means, depending on where your speakers are located, and where you are located, the same bass note can range from overpowering in one spot, to virtually nonexistent in another spot. Similarly, you can also have large changes in the sound level in the same spot with changes in frequency (a song where you hear a bass guitar, one note will be loud, another soft).

By using two subwoofers placed properly, you can significantly decrease these modes. This will result in much smoother bass that also sounds much "tighter". Contrary to what many think, running two subwoofers instead of one is not about getting more volume, it is about getting better and smoother sound through your room and at your listening position. By using separate subwoofers you can optimize their placement to get the most benefit, something that does not occur when using large full range speakers without subwoofers (you will see many here, myself included, use floor standing speakers and subwoofers). This is why in addition to the extra headroom you would get, many here are recommending you add a pair of subwoofers and spend the time to properly integrate them into your system.

Here is some brief reading on why multiple subwoofers are beneficial:


A video also, as some like videos better than articles:

 
Last edited:

Mr. Widget

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2022
Messages
1,133
Likes
1,630
Location
SF Bay Area
The reason he recommends the placement he does is it is most likely to result in smoothing of the bass frequencies.
In my surround room I used REW to model 1, 2, 3, and 4 subs. It turned out that in my case three subwoofers gave the best response in the widest range of seats. REW doesn't work as well in odd shaped rooms, but for rectilinear rooms it works really well.

Media Room SIM sm.jpg
 
OP
S

Seany

Active Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2023
Messages
124
Likes
56
Well I would just want to start with one sub to start with and see. Believe it or I've had certain subwoofers on the back burner since last fall, I've watched lots of reviews on the following subs that are my short list for a while now. With that said I still don't know a ton about subwoofers. I prefer a SQ sub that is tight and will be great for music but movies is some-what important too. I think I should get a sealed sub due people have said it's better for music but still good for movies, but ported subs do worse with music than a sealed does with movies...how true is that ?? I've included a pic on where I would want the sub to be placed, how many inches would I need between the sub and the TV stand and would there be a diff needed space when using a ported vs sealed sub in that same place ? By the way are some subs harder to setup/integrate then others ?
Rel Tx9
Rythmik F12
SB-2000 PRO
 
Last edited:

ROOSKIE

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 27, 2020
Messages
1,906
Likes
3,370
Location
Minneapolis
Well I would just want to start with one sub to start with and see. Believe it or I've had certain subwoofers on the back burner since last fall, I've watched lots of reviews on the following subs that are my short list for a while now. With that said I still don't know a ton about subwoofers. I prefer a SQ sub that is tight and will be great for music but movies is some-what important too. I think I should get a sealed sub due people have said it's better for music but still good for movies, but ported subs do worse with music than a sealed does with movies...how true is that ?? I've included a pic on where I would want the sub to be placed, how many inches would I need between the sub and the TV stand and would there be a diff needed space when using a ported vs sealed sub in that same place ? By the way are some subs harder to setup/integrate then others ?
Rel Tx9
Rythmik F12
SB-2000 PRO
Monoprice Monolith subs are superb values
Right now some open box ones are crazy cheap if you use promo code ' MP20 '
when you check out. Like the 10" https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=38201

Others are not discounted with the code but still very much worth it.

Sealed vs Ported is not a simple question. Both design can have basically the same level of sound quality and both can be designed poorly. Sealed subs require much more power to play at the same Sound Pressure Level, but often the enclosures are much smaller due to the nature of the design.

People say all sorts of things that have zero basis in reality, the main problem ported subs face is that many cheap subs and computer speakers are tuned for one note bass to give more output & then the car stereo SPL competion guys often give ported a bad rap. There is no inherent issue with sound quality and ported subs, just design choices being made from a wide variety of possibilities.

Many ultra high perfromance, high quality subwoofers are in both camps.

Very high output subs are a bit harder to set-up as they excite more room modes. Setting the sub up in general takes some time. Like many good things, it takes time and some skill. You can't really just set the crossover and be done.
 
OP
S

Seany

Active Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2023
Messages
124
Likes
56
Monoprice Monolith subs are superb values
Right now some open box ones are crazy cheap if you use promo code ' MP20 '
when you check out. Like the 10" https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=38201

Others are not discounted with the code but still very much worth it.

Sealed vs Ported is not a simple question. Both design can have basically the same level of sound quality and both can be designed poorly. Sealed subs require much more power to play at the same Sound Pressure Level, but often the enclosures are much smaller due to the nature of the design.

People say all sorts of things that have zero basis in reality, the main problem ported subs face is that many cheap subs and computer speakers are tuned for one note bass to give more output & then the car stereo SPL competion guys often give ported a bad rap. There is no inherent issue with sound quality and ported subs, just design choices being made from a wide variety of possibilities.

Many ultra high perfromance, high quality subwoofers are in both camps.

Very high output subs are a bit harder to set-up as they excite more room modes. Setting the sub up in general takes some time. Like many good things, it takes time and some skill. You can't really just set the crossover and be done.
I've looked at Monolith by Monoprice subs and there subs are a little big (box wise) compared to the one's I've mentioned.
 

CDMC

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
1,172
Likes
2,316
Well I would just want to start with one sub to start with and see. Believe it or I've had certain subwoofers on the back burner since last fall, I've watched lots of reviews on the following subs that are my short list for a while now. With that said I still don't know a ton about subwoofers. I prefer a SQ sub that is tight and will be great for music but movies is some-what important too. I think I should get a sealed sub due people have said it's better for music but still good for movies, but ported subs do worse with music than a sealed does with movies...how true is that ?? I've included a pic on where I would want the sub to be placed, how many inches would I need between the sub and the TV stand and would there be a diff needed space when using a ported vs sealed sub in that same place ? By the way are some subs harder to setup/integrate then others ?
Rel Tx9
Rythmik F12
SB-2000 PRO

I would scratch the REL off the list, overpriced for what you get. Whether a sub is sealed or vented (and btw a passive radiator like used in the REL is form of a vented) tells you nothing about how it will sound. You can have overdamped ported subs and underdamped sealed subwoofers. In very general terms, a vented subwoofer will give you greater extension and higher output, but the tradeoff is a larger enclosure size.

Setting up subs is the same process regardless of the brand or type. It is slightly more complicated with two subs, but well worth the effort, as setup has a profound effect on how well a system works.

Finally, if you trying to minimize the box space, I would add the HSU ULS-15 MK2 to your list. It is close in size to the Rythmik and SB-2000, but gets you into a 15" driver and is very tunable. You can see from my signature where my preference in subwoofers lies (but part of that is I started using Velodyne subwoofers when they were the only servo subwoofers and were far ahead of virtually all of the competition).
 
OP
S

Seany

Active Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2023
Messages
124
Likes
56
K, thanks to everybody for helping me with my original problem. I probably shouldn't change this thread in a different direction and start talking about subwoofers cause I think that's what I'm going to get as my next upgrade. Even if I would get diff speakers at some point big maybe, getting a subwoofer first is something I want to do either way.
 

ExPerfectionist

Active Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2023
Messages
105
Likes
110
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
K, thanks to everybody for helping me with my original problem. I probably shouldn't change this thread in a different direction and start talking about subwoofers cause I think that's what I'm going to get as my next upgrade. Even if I would get diff speakers at some point big maybe, getting a subwoofer first is something I want to do either way.

I only read the first 2-3 pages of comments, don't know if you got to the bottom of your problem?

Was it distortion? "Sounds shouty" makes it seem like it's distortion, but more so brightness and shrillness in high frequencies bouncing off of all of the bare walls and surfaces. If it's distortion from trying to do too much bass, then yes adding a subwoofer in to take work off of the speakers would help. But again, your description of "shouty/shouting" makes me think of an overly echo-y room.
Have you run the AccuEQ Room Acoustic Calibration on your receiver? If you have room reflections and overly bright top end, that might help tame it and bring things down some.

Sorry if you've already covered all of this in previous posts...

Also have you experimented with the toe-in angle of the speakers? It looks like they are pointed straight out, with zero toe-in angle towards the listening position. Toeing them in wouldn't necessarily help with the main problem, but could help give you better imaging and center image.
 
D

Deleted member 48726

Guest
I only read the first 2-3 pages of comments, don't know if you got to the bottom of your problem?

Was it distortion? "Sounds shouty" makes it seem like it's distortion, but more so brightness and shrillness in high frequencies bouncing off of all of the bare walls and surfaces. If it's distortion from trying to do too much bass, then yes adding a subwoofer in to take work off of the speakers would help. But again, your description of "shouty/shouting" makes me think of an overly echo-y room.
Have you run the AccuEQ Room Acoustic Calibration on your receiver? If you have room reflections and overly bright top end, that might help tame it and bring things down some.

Sorry if you've already covered all of this in previous posts...

Also have you experimented with the toe-in angle of the speakers? It looks like they are pointed straight out, with zero toe-in angle towards the listening position. Toeing them in wouldn't necessarily help with the main problem, but could help give you better imaging and center image.
:facepalm:
 

ExPerfectionist

Active Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2023
Messages
105
Likes
110
Location
San Francisco Bay Area

I prefer to test and get to the bottom of a problem before throwing money at a solution that may not even fix the actual issue. To me, someone saying "it gets "shouty" at high volumes" points me to the highs, not bloated or distorted bass.

I have a friend that's also into audio (now has a nice set of Maggies paired with McIntosh electronics). Years ago he had some nice Paradigm towers and was going to upgrade because they sounded harsh and shrill at higher volumes. I took a few of my GIK Acoustics panels to his place, set at first reflection points, and blew his mind.

I just read the remainder of the thread, and the only test I saw OP did was measure SPL, no faking a sub in the chain to high pass the signal to the mains and see if less bass fixed the "shouty" issue which people assumed was woofer distortion + amp running out of juice. Testing for that would be able to distinguish "issue gone" (woofer distortion or no/less treble distortion from amp running out of juice) or "issue still present" from issue with highs ("shouty" sound, pointing to room and/or amp/speaker combo unable to handle higher volume). I think someone also suggested but OP didn't try checking the Loudness or EQ settings to see if any of those settings could be contributing to sound issues.
 
D

Deleted member 48726

Guest
I prefer to test and get to the bottom of a problem before throwing money at a solution that may not even fix the actual issue. To me, someone saying "it gets "shouty" at high volumes" points me to the highs, not bloated or distorted bass.

I have a friend that's also into audio (now has a nice set of Maggies paired with McIntosh electronics). Years ago he had some nice Paradigm towers and was going to upgrade because they sounded harsh and shrill at higher volumes. I took a few of my GIK Acoustics panels to his place, set at first reflection points, and blew his mind.

I just read the remainder of the thread, and the only test I saw OP did was measure SPL, no faking a sub in the chain to high pass the signal to the mains and see if less bass fixed the "shouty" issue which people assumed was woofer distortion + amp running out of juice. Testing for that would be able to distinguish "issue gone" (woofer distortion or no/less treble distortion from amp running out of juice) or "issue still present" from issue with highs ("shouty" sound, pointing to room and/or amp/speaker combo unable to handle higher volume).
It's a clear cut case this. His description and the SPL measurement is everything you need. Don't complicate it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom