Why does my music start sounding crappier once I go past 70db on my AVR ?

[ROOSKIE]

I know some of you are saying I should just add a couple of subs, but really adding subs to small bookshelves and I want big sound it just doesn't seem to make 100% sense. I mean how many of you guys putting two subs with a smaller 6.5 bookshelves I doubt very many of you are doing that right?

Yes check out the 590's they are slightly warm in the lows and the trebble is extended but not bright. If you find it bright just turn the trebble down by 1-2db in your AVR.
(I sold my set to a guy in Japan as I just try to many speakers. )

I sit 12 feet away and put 6.5" 2ways with subs all the time.
Some are very high performing this way.
My main system is as such.
Revel M126be & JBL 4309 (switch them in and out) both high passed(removing the bass) at 90hrz and blended with 3 subs and PEQ for room issues and some minor speaker response tweaks.
Maximum SPL is very high, especially with the 4309's.

Still I think you ought to go with large sized mains. Something tells me you will love it that way. The 590's can hammer out at high SPL compared to similar priced gear.

 

[ROOSKIE]

So with the lintons my current AVR I have would play a just a little bit louder and if I get the Polks it would definitely play louder but I just don't have the power to do it. So if I keep my same speakers and AVR and I get two subs that would play louder and basically blow the linton's and polks away ?

No, the more sensitive the speaker the LESS power you require.
The Polk R700's are going to play louder than the Lintons with the same power input.
Usually bigger speakers = less power required. Seems counter initiative at 1st.

Both the Lintons and the Polks will be limited a bit by the tweeter and possibly the midrange. At very, very high SPL both will hit their limit before the tweeter in JBL 590 or the drivers in the JBL L100. The tweeter in the 590 is a pro caliber compression design. Combined with the huge waveguide it is capable of over 120db of sound pressure level, more than any tweeter in this thread. The Polk and Linton tweeters at that level would be long gone - smoked.
The L100 also uses some seriously high power handing drivers. Both the tweeter and midrange are far better drivers than what is in the Linton or Polk sets.

Just look at the 12" woofer in the L100, this is what is being used to reproduce the same mid-bass as the DBR62' 6.5".
One single woofer weighs as much as a pair of DBR62s.

JBL L100 Classic Bookshelf Loudspeaker Review - Modern Take on a Classic

The JBL L100 Classics have the look of the L100 Centurys updated with the latest in loudspeaker design for improved performance. Our review determines if they surpass the originals to create a new legacy.

www.audioholics.com

 

[ROOSKIE]

Are YOU kidding? Do you think I meant of the absolute value..

No offense, but possibly/yes.
Especially as I stated the Android apps I found have been off by 5-10db( using several different LG Vseries phones and a Motorola.)
10% of sound power is 0.4db. Which is very accurate, but the apps have not been remotely close to that.
IOS as stated by a few now does have some very good options, Android which OP has does not(unless you manually calibrate them)
If able to calibrate or even add a 3.5mm Dayton Mic then AudioTool is phenomenal. A fantastic Android app.

 

[antcollinet]

See post #109. No I'm not hitting the 90 db range, there's no way the app is crap unreliable.

How do you know if you are not measuring with a better instrument?

 

[ZolaIII]

Did you see my results in the link I posted in post #165 above? I was stunned by the accuracy when compared my phone against a calibrated $1000 lab grade mic. The FR linearity is not as good, but for basic SPL measurements the iOS mics are quite satisfactory.

Competitors A and B where Samsung and Apple phone's at the time, Nokia used really good mics with 145 dB sensitivity in the meantime nothing really changed about quality of mics Apple and Samsung were putting in phones.

 

[gnarly]

I'm a speaker measurement nut, .... absolutely couldn't pursue the audio hobby without them....



But does it make sense to be scrutinizing the accuracy of a SPL meter,

in a thread where the issue is so obvious that no SPL meter, or any other measurements, are even needed?

 

[Deleted member 48726]

I'm a speaker measurement nut, .... absolutely couldn't pursue the audio hobby without them....



But does it make sense to be scrutinizing the accuracy of a SPL meter,

in a thread where the issue is so obvious that no SPL meter, or any other measurements, are even needed?

Yeah. You can tell what the problem is by his description only. I posted it in the #6 post.

The demands for measurements and scientific approach is in this case absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Seany]

Well I'm waiting till Sunday to use the better app with my ex's Apple phone I have a few questions. How come for example rotel's S14 very interested in buying in the future has 80 watts into 8 Ohms and 150 watts into 4 Ohms listed in the specs how come AVR manufacturers like my AVR TX-NR6100 only lists the 100 watts into 8 Ohms but doesn't list the 4 ohms spec, neither do more expensive AVR's like the Onkyo RZ-50. But from I've read for while now the Rotel and others like it I mentioned and even the Yamaha I've mentioned in the past the A.S1200 with similar specs as the Rotel can drive more difficult speakers much easier, why is that ? Is it because they can handle the sudden dips in power draws (impedance going from 6-8 ohms down in the 3-4 ohms range due to a bigger transformer that can hold and distribute power just a lot better ?

But let's say I have a speaker for example that's really well engineered and always stays around 8 ohms even under stressed situations, then cheaper AVR's and amplifiers will do the job just as good or almost just as good as much more expensive amplifiers for these types of speakers that don't dip low when stressed? Hopefully you guys understand what I mean.

Also is there any way to know if my Onkyo TX-NR6100 AVR uses a class AB amplifier or is it a class D amp ?

 

[Urvile]

Conclusion:
The current lower end Onkyo family AVR's are not sized (in terms of their power supply / transformer) to handle difficult speaker loads. - a 4 ohm speaker without extreme current demands should be fine, but one with high current requirements is going to make the AVR sound poorly.

I completely agree with this to a point, I had a TX-NR6100, it could not handle my R700s, One of the things Amir mentioned in one of his recent videos is that most all speakers are 4 Omhs, the R700 on Polks site says Minimum Impedance 3.6 ohms, and the L400 are 3.4 ohms → 4 ohms. Same components (Id assume a different crossover) .

Point is TX-NR6100 can't handle R700s unless used at a low volume, and in my experience even at low volumes they handle them poorly.

 

[Seany]

I completely agree with this to a point, I had a TX-NR6100, it could not handle my R700s, One of the things Amir mentioned in one of his recent videos is that most all speakers are 4 Omhs, the R700 on Polks site says Minimum Impedance 3.6 ohms, and the L400 are 3.4 ohms → 4 ohms. Same components (Id assume a different crossover) .

Point is TX-NR6100 can't handle R700s unless used at a low volume, and in my experience even at low volumes they handle them poorly.

Do you think that a amp like the Rotel A14 MII that actually has 20 watts less then my AVR TX-NR6100 that has 100W would handle the Polk R700 just fine ?

The Rotel does list its 4ohm capability as 150watts.

 

[Urvile]

My guess is yes, but that's a guess, I was in the same position I went another direction, I replaced my Onkyo with the Denon and used it as preamp, and used buckeye as the amps. It's not a perfect solution, The Denon has meager output for a preamp, I'll never get close to max output on the Buckeye/Purifi. Then again, the Buckeye can drive low impedance speakers, without any problems.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Yes.
Absolutely both speakers will play louder than the DBR62 in large part due to having much better bass ability.

Try either one. But I suspect the R700 will be able to play a but louder vs the Lintons at the extreme.
Something like the JBL 580 and especially the 590 which are on sale will play even louder. They will blow the Lintons and Polks out if going really really loud. Plus they are not actually very bright sounding. But to many the looks are an issue. I actually like the look. $1k a pair new direct from Harman/JBL ($500ea) for the 590's, note they truly can rock. Yes your AVR can drive them and they require LESS power to play at the same in room SPL vs your bookshelves.

Studio 590 | 250-watt, dual 8" floorstanding loudspeaker

The JBL® Studio 590 floorstanding loudspeaker brings professional-quality sound to the home experience. The Studio 590 uses the technology that JBL engineers developed for pro-audio loudspeakers to deliver accurate, powerful sound to your living room. The Studio 590 is a perfect complement to...

www.harmanaudio.com

Also BestBuy is clearing out the Non-meta KEF R11 in Walnut for $3300 a pair ($1650 each) move fast if you want those they will sell out within a week or less. Yes your AVR can drive them and they require LESS power to play at the same in room SPL vs your bookshelves.

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/searchpage.jsp?st=kef+r11&_dyncharset=UTF-8&_dynSessConf=&id=pcat17071&type=page&sc=Global&cp=1&nrp=&sp=&qp=&list=n&af=true&iht=y&usc=All+Categories&ks=960&keys=keys

Also bear in mind you have tone controls. If any speaker is to bright, turning the trebble down 1-3db should create a tonality you like.

Wow. Don’t even think twice. R11 for that price.

 

[ROOSKIE]

Well I'm waiting till Sunday to use the better app with my ex's Apple phone I have a few questions. How come for example rotel's S14 very interested in buying in the future has 80 watts into 8 Ohms and 150 watts into 4 Ohms listed in the specs how come AVR manufacturers like my AVR TX-NR6100 only lists the 100 watts into 8 Ohms but doesn't list the 4 ohms spec, neither do more expensive AVR's like the Onkyo RZ-50. But from I've read for while now the Rotel and others like it I mentioned and even the Yamaha I've mentioned in the past the A.S1200 with similar specs as the Rotel can drive more difficult speakers much easier, why is that ? Is it because they can handle the sudden dips in power draws (impedance going from 6-8 ohms down in the 3-4 ohms range due to a bigger transformer that can hold and distribute power just a lot better ?

But let's say I have a speaker for example that's really well engineered and always stays around 8 ohms even under stressed situations, then cheaper AVR's and amplifiers will do the job just as good or almost just as good as much more expensive amplifiers for these types of speakers that don't dip low when stressed? Hopefully you guys understand what I mean.

Also is there any way to know if my Onkyo TX-NR6100 AVR uses a class AB amplifier or is it a class D amp ?

Yes, true 8ohm speakers (that don't have difficult phase angles, and or low impedance zones) are often very easy to drive and cheap amps will rock them.

There are a million ways to spec an amp and why different products are speced the way they are is impossible to condense or know.

As I mentioned earlier it takes DOUBLE the power just to gain 3db of output. The differenece between 80 and 100 and then 100 and 150 is not very meaningfull and is waste of your attention.

I posted a screen shot from part of the data sheet specs to your amp in a previous post.


Your amp is fine for now. It is THX certified which does actually mean something. It can handle 4ohm loads. You are only driving 2 speakers. They even rate it's dynamic power in 3ohms, meaning they are comfortable with you driving it hard.

Nobody here actually can really tell you that your AVR is weak. I honestly don't think it is. I am actually impressed with it's specs for the price. Yes it would be nice if actually doubled power from 8ohms to 4, even again down to 2ohms but almost no amps can do this.

Don't waste your cash on a Rotel. As much as I love ultra low distortion amps like the Hypex stuff folks have mentioned it will be a waste, 'me thinks. I would buy a super powerful Crown amp IF the AVR is not enough. Buy the Crown XLS 1502 or the 2002 and never worry about power ever.

Crown XLS 2002

DriveCore™ 2 Series power amplifier — 375W x 2 at 8 ohms, 2,100W x 1 at 4 ohms bridged

www.crutchfield.com

Crown XLS 1502

DriveCore™ 2 Series power amplifier — 300W x 2 at 8 ohms, 1,550W x 1 at 4 ohms bridged

www.crutchfield.com

Yes, they really make huge power and yes they sound great and they are efficient as well. They also almost double power from 8ohm-4ohm-20hm so you will never be short of dynamic capability. Don't waste cash on anything else "audiophile/audiofool' unless it has been reviewed by ASR and proven to be worth the money.

Also remember that your amp is really only running out of power in the bass, manly because the ELAC speakers are low sensitivity. Something like the 590's will be easier to drive to the same levels, it will be easier not harder due to the speaker having much higher sensitivity. It will take about around 1/4-1/2 the power to make the same SPL. Meaning your amp will be floating along. The larger speaker voice coils will also not be as hot meaning that compression will be potentially much lower.

In the meantime I think your amp will crush very well with something like the JBL 590's or the aformentioned KEF R11.

 

[ZolaIII]

@ROOSKIE recently I discovered very interesting lineup of PA Dynacord power amplifiers.

Dynacord L1300FD DSP amplifier - PDF Free Download

Added value Dynacord L1300FD DSP amplifier By Stefan Kosmalla I find it hard to believe that the tools4music laboratory has received an amplifier for review that does not contain a switching power supply.

docplayer.net

While performance ain't mind blowing it's still very good and so is a build quality. However most interesting part is DSP integration and some unique futures and also low impedance tolerance. Price is nice but I believe availability is EU only, and made only for EU power grid.
Once again thank to @Holdt pointing to measurements.

 

[antcollinet]

Well I'm waiting till Sunday to use the better app with my ex's Apple phone I have a few questions. How come for example rotel's S14 very interested in buying in the future has 80 watts into 8 Ohms and 150 watts into 4 Ohms listed in the specs how come AVR manufacturers like my AVR TX-NR6100 only lists the 100 watts into 8 Ohms but doesn't list the 4 ohms spec,

Are you sure it doesn't?

From:

TX-NR6100 7.2-Channel THX Certified AV Receiver | Onkyo

The Onkyo TX-NR6100 7.2 Channel THX Certified AV Receiver delivers the movie theater to your home. Shop Now.

onkyousa.com

Spec sheet.

Admittedly it only specifies it at a rather useless 10%THD - but you can probably expect in the region of 160 to 180W at 1%

 

[Seany]

Search for Audio Tools. I believe it costs $10.


View attachment 282046

I changed mind, no more testing we know what the problem is, as others have already said too.

 

[antcollinet]

I changed mind, no more testing we know what the problem is, as others have already said too.

Do we? Without measurements, we just have a load of speculation.

Feel free to act on it though - but don't be surprised if you spend a lot of money with no improvement.

 

[Seany]

Yes, true 8ohm speakers (that don't have difficult phase angles, and or low impedance zones) are often very easy to drive and cheap amps will rock them.

There are a million ways to spec an amp and why different products are speced the way they are is impossible to condense or know.

As I mentioned earlier it takes DOUBLE the power just to gain 3db of output. The differences between 80 and 100 and then 100 and 150 is not very meaningful and is waste of your attention.

I posted a screen shot from part of the data sheet specs to your amp in a previous post.


Your amp is fine for now. It is THX certified which does actually mean something. It can handle 4ohm loads. You are only driving 2 speakers. They even rate it's dynamic power in 3ohms, meaning they are comfortable with you driving it hard.

Nobody here actually can really tell you that your AVR is weak. I honestly don't think it is. I am actually impressed with it's specs for the price. Yes it would be nice if actually doubled power from 8ohms to 4, even again down to 2ohms but almost no amps can do this.

Don't waste your cash on a Rotel. As much as I love ultra low distortion amps like the Hypex stuff folks have mentioned it will be a waste, 'me thinks. I would buy a super powerful Crown amp IF the AVR is not enough. Buy the Crown XLS 1502 or the 2002 and never worry about power ever.

Crown XLS 2002

DriveCore™ 2 Series power amplifier — 375W x 2 at 8 ohms, 2,100W x 1 at 4 ohms bridged

www.crutchfield.com

Crown XLS 1502

DriveCore™ 2 Series power amplifier — 300W x 2 at 8 ohms, 1,550W x 1 at 4 ohms bridged

www.crutchfield.com

Yes, they really make huge power and yes they sound great and they are efficient as well. They also almost double power from 8ohm-4ohm-20hm so you will never be short of dynamic capability. Don't waste cash on anything else "audiophile/audiofool' unless it has been reviewed by ASR and proven to be worth the money.

Also remember that your amp is really only running out of power in the bass, manly because the ELAC speakers are low sensitivity. Something like the 590's will be easier to drive to the same levels, it will be easier not harder due to the speaker having much higher sensitivity. It will take about around 1/4-1/2 the power to make the same SPL. Meaning your amp will be floating along. The larger speaker voice coils will also not be as hot meaning that compression will be potentially much lower.

In the meantime I think your amp will crush very well with something like the JBL 590's or the aforementioned KEF R11.

There's a lot to think about and I definitely some new things. At this point I'm not not sure what I will do. Getting sub sounds good too but I'm not sure I have the room. If you check the pic, there only one place I would like to have at and that would be where you see the cat5 cable going in the wall. Would that be a good spot to put a sub do you think. Is there a rule of thumb about subs needing so many inches around the back and side wall ?

 

[Seany]

Do we? Without measurements, we just have a load of speculation.

Feel free to act on it though - but don't be surprised if you spend a lot of money with no improvement.

I appreciate your help, but I think it's obvious I've reached the limits for what I got. Either get bigger speakers, add a amp maybe, or get a sub or two and that would open up my current speakers quite a bit.

 

[antcollinet]

I appreciate your help, but I think it's obvious I've reached the limits for what I got. Either get bigger speakers, add a amp maybe, or get a sub or two and that would open up my current speakers quite a bit.

True - that is most likely.

But what if you buy new amp and new speakers and it doesn't improve. Might happen if the problem is room modes.