Why do you think a few members have an 'alcoholic anonymous' vibe towards the audiophile community? It seems a harmless hobby as far as things go?

[Deleted member 21219]

If you're in control of something, that's good. If something is in control of you, that's bad. What that "something" happens to be is irrelevant.

Jim

 

[kemmler3D]

I would add - the anti-science branch of the hobby is harmful in that it normalizes being anti-science. Down here on planet earth, you can either have science, or you can do some better science to supersede it. You can't just make s*** up and expect things to work. Subjectivist audiophiles have made an entire industry around making s*** up, which is not problematic ... unless you think about what that implies for how those people behave when they're not writing about audio.

In audio, like you say, if people believe nonsense, nothing much happens either way. But if you carry that same anti-science mental habit to other spheres of activity, you will cause real harm.

We live in a world where flat-earthers think they're fully entitled to their assinine beliefs, and they're PROUD of it. Maybe let's not give BS a pass, maybe let's stamp out flat-earther-like behavior wherever we find it.

So I guess at the individual hobbyist level I don't usually see much of a problem, unless people are talking themselves or others into financial hardship. But at the industry, "telling lies, making profits" level, I certainly see problems.

 

[kemmler3D]

I get it; if you feel like you'd been "had" by some of the b.s. that pervaded your previous engagement with the hobby, one could be bitter or be made quite cynical.

When it comes to being patronized or someone trying to trick / scam me, I have a really abnormally strong reaction to that. I basically highly resent all these firms slinging BS and (in my mind) thinking I'll fall for it. How dare they! I do talk to my therapist about this sometimes.

I haven't even fallen for any of the high-end BS. I just get irritated thinking that someone thought I WOULD fall for it. It's like they're calling me stupid with their florid marketing copy. Again, I know this is a bit extreme and weird.

 

[pablolie]

Many hobbies are like that though - you get sucked into it and it results in over-consumerism, which one may easily regret... but such is human nature. We embark on passionate journeys that impact our rational decision-making, and then tend to self-correct (hopefully).
As long as it doesn't become a self-destructive addiction, hey, if you can wing it financially, indulge. And this goes for many things in life. Cars. Motorcycles. Mechanical watches. Wine. Initial romantic passion.
I like the moment when you look into the mirror and tell yourself "OK, enough of this, boy, it's time to moderate yourself a little". It's called growth.

 

[BobbyTimmons]

I think this is where you're understating the case.

Many "high end" cables could get you 2 or 3 high-end computers each.

Gaming is more mainstream than audiophilia. A good gaming rig costs more than a good hifi system if you follow ASR recommendations and people spend grossly inflated prices during shortages like the GPU shortage. They also have to be updated regularly unlike a stereo.

It would be interesting to do a survey on how much the average 'woo' audiophiles spend. Steve Guttenberg is one of the main influencers in the online 'woo' side of audiophilia. Some of his viewers' systems are in the $3000 range on the used market. That's not much money as one-time expenses for people in industrialized countries. They express varying degrees of individuality. Their systems are a kind of self-expression.

There are a lot more harmful hobbies out there... we could all name 10, I am sure. That doesn't mean that the fantastical / anti-science branch of audiophilia is good.

Just it might not be easy to find many ones which are less dangerous if you look at it on balance. Knitting is probably less harmful than audiophilia. They both have the main danger of encouraging physical inactivity. Knitting doesn't encourage big spending. Just it often uses wool which has potential environmental and ethical costs.

 

[BobbyTimmons]

I would add - the anti-science branch of the hobby is harmful in that it normalizes being anti-science. Down here on planet earth, you can either have science, or you can do some better science to supersede it. You can't just make s*** up and expect things to work. Subjectivist audiophiles have made an entire industry around making s*** up, which is not problematic ... unless you think about what that implies for how those people behave when they're not writing about audio.

In audio, like you say, if people believe nonsense, nothing much happens either way. But if you carry that same anti-science mental habit to other spheres of activity, you will cause real harm.

We live in a world where flat-earthers think they're fully entitled to their assinine beliefs, and they're PROUD of it. Maybe let's not give BS a pass, maybe let's stamp out flat-earther-like behavior wherever we find it.

So I guess at the individual hobbyist level I don't usually see much of a problem, unless people are talking themselves or others into financial hardship. But at the industry, "telling lies, making profits" level, I certainly see problems.

One of the surprising issues with this is a lot of the 'woo' audiophiles are scientists and engineers. If you go on Facebook and argue with the audiophiles you'll often see that when you click on their profiles. Last time I got in an argument on Facebook I had a retired aerospace engineer telling me to isolate my components. Have you noticed the 'woo' side of things often injects obsessions which are typical among scientists and engineers? The neurosis about isolating different components is from laboratory culture. That's not something from art students and musicians. Those obsessions are isolating components are much less common in Car Audio because that has a different audience too.

 

[Audio Science Pal]

Ask about this after you look into buying your own dedicated power line run from the transformer!

Standard configuration in my neighborhood. Lucky me, didn't need to pay extra!

 

[Deleted member 21219]

One of the issues with this is that a lot of the 'woo' audiophiles are scientists and engineers. If you go on Facebook and argue with the audiophiles you'll often see that when you click on their profiles.

Although Facebook has a real-name policy, do you believe that any adroit scammer can't bypass this? After all, to some people, getting you to believe b.s. is a fun game. It's a challenge, and they thrive on it.

If 2+2 adds up to 5, something's wrong.

Jim

 

[tmtomh]

An audio forum is where the most passionate and emotionally invested defenses and critiques of the audio hobby are going to be. Ditto for any other hobby. So the interest in and passion for the hobby is going to raise the stakes of discourse for some members regardless of what they might say if asked to step back and reflect on how important or unimportant the hobby is in the larger scheme of things in the world.

I do agree that some folks here often seem to take an aggressively scornful tone towards audiophilia, or in some cases respond to noobs with rather ungenerous interpretations of their questions or motives. But again, anti-science or "woo woo" audiophilia is basically the polar opposite of the entire mission and purpose of this site and forum, so IMHO it's not surprising that some folks would be heated about the subject even if it's low down on the harm scale as far as human pleasures/"vices" go.

There's also the factor of ASR's growth and increased influence in the audio world spurring membership growth here - which is great! - and amidst that growth is a small but somewhat steady stream of folks who create accounts here seemingly just to try to argue about these questions. I don't think they are the reason some members here are so aggressively "anti-audiophile," but my sense is that it could be an aggravating factor.

 

[BDWoody]

Boats are the only worse money pits.

My sailing friends equate the pastime to standing in a cold shower tearing up $100 notes.

What's the old saying...?

If it flies, floats or fu fornicates, it's cheaper to rent than to buy.

Its greatest danger is encouraging physical inactivity like most indoor activities.

If it weren't for the dishonest money grab part of it you mean?

 

[pablolie]

Living in Silicon Valley -and I have to word this carefully, since my identity is easy to establish- I have seen plenty of newly minted multi millionaires that buy a 6 figure audio system just as a checkmark in their 8 figure homes. And they could not care less about reviews and measurements. It's all down to lifestyle consultants.

And they'd never ever join a forum like this. It is a different world. I think that distorts our view of audio phoolery here. Those people will never discuss their 6 figure setup online. But they feed the high end market. And they could not care less about our objections to their systems. They care far more about buying a place on Maui next to some really famous person, or attending a party on someone's famous yacht at Capri etc.

Those audio hobby excess claims fall onto completely deaf ears to them. The next buyer may just trash the system in that place.

Stereophile had a thread some time ago where some occasional showoff would post a picture of 200k speakers set up against a spectacular landscape... glass behind those speakers, mind you. Stone floors. Clearly a horrible environment for a million dollar system but hey.. looks impressive, which is the entire point.

And rest assured there is zero financial concern there.

 

[Chrispy]

I had seen what I assume was your comment in another thread and wondered wtf does that mean (the aa vibe thing). Where are the coffee and cigarettes?

 

[ahofer]

My sailing friends equate the pastime to standing in a cold shower tearing up $100 notes.

William F. Buckley, an ardent sailor, defined a boat as “a hole in the ocean into which you throw money” and sailing as “going nowhere slowly at vast expense”.

I like sailing too, but not racing.

 

[ryanosaur]

Standard configuration in my neighborhood. Lucky me, didn't need to pay extra!

You have a dedicated audio only power service entry to your home? Standard?
*blinks

 

[sam_adams]

Where are the coffee and cigarettes doughnuts?

FTFY.

 

[thegeton]

My sailing friends equate the pastime to standing in a cold shower tearing up $100 notes.

My boaty friends say it's a hole in the ocean into which you throw all of your money...

 

[Rockfella]

OP in my opinion one needs to balance things out. We're lucky to have ASR now. I have multiple hobbies, but I never go out and out to spend a lot of money following advertising bs. Just like audio almost every industry is 80% marketing bs. One just needs to do a lot of reading/demos etc to find our own sweet spot, probably in everything

 

[Chrispy]

FTFY.

Probably room for both

 

[GXAlan]

Just I wonder if audiophilia is not almost the definition of a harmless hobby? Its greatest danger is encouraging physical inactivity like most indoor activities. You could also damage your hearing.

I agree with 99% of what you wrote. The danger is when audiophiles become evangelists and find walls to put up and create “us vs them” scenarios.

“The best way to listen is vinyl and therefore digital listeners are bad.”

“LOL, at someone spending that much on _____ when I can get ____ from Amazon. What a fool.”

Seeking conflict is where audiophiles seem to have a weakness. Even me. Why didn’t I just agree with you and have to argue that I have a 1% disagreement.

The other danger is the practice of pseudoscience which adds to the blurring of experience and expertise. For audio, maybe not that horrible — but as a society, we should not excuse outright snake oil like magic rocks, green markers. Line conditioners? At least that has measurable effects on the line (even if they have no measurable effects on audio output).

That’s where I get on my soap box. We can all get along with differences of opinions AND point out the snake oil where the snake oil exists.

Would you say the same about gambling? In both high-end audio and gambling you lose money that you didn't need to.

I think there’s a balance. Playing the lotto is gambling but many people will look at it and say, if I lose, a decent amount goes to public schools and man, maybe it’s my turn to get lucky? Even something like starting up your company could be considered “a gamble”.

People spend extra money on a nicer paint job on their cars. CD players with whisper quiet trays and solid feeling remotes are all valid ways to enjoy the fruits of your labor or the windfall from money that you didn’t need to earn.

The way I would look at it is to say, I can tell you the odds and you can decide whether to gamble or not. For audio, we don’t need to tell someone “you wasted your money” or “you lost your money”

We can say:
Modern electronics have gotten so good that cables and line conditioners really don’t matter. The things that makes it sound good like using low noise end up meaning that the device has its own AC filtering.

DACs have benefited from all the innovation in chip making where it’s now possible to have 8 channels in a single chip working together so that random noise is reduced since you won’t see the same noise pattern in all 8.

It achieves the same science but does so by highlighting the good rather than focusing on the bad.

 

[JSmith]

JSmith