Why are there no female Audiophiles?

[Travis]

The recent thread where the (supposedly) female member asks for information about THD in amplifiers made me think. After three pages on that thread and reply from the OP, it's pretty obvious that the member is not the psychologist Erin English. So for any lonely audio nuts out there, sadly we have not got an attractive blond female in the hobby, you're just going to have to continue solo. Thanks to the reviewer community, we do know that female partners are interested in some aspects of HiFi, as they are known to appear in the reviewers listening room, having rushed from the kitchen, to meet the musicians currently performing in their house. However, the interest appears to end there.

Do we have an answer yet?

From the photos posted in the original post, it looks like the demographic of attendees is male, 50+ (probably) not sure where they are from but suspect US. That's probably the demo of this Forum, and probably every other audio Forum.

The higher-end we go, the absence of women is more than obvious. I skimmed through a few websites with photos of HiFi shows from around the world and the demographic is uniform across all the events. With a few exceptions, grey haired men. Nonetheless, the crowd is 99%+ male regardless of age.

I think a more fundamental question is, why are there not more younger people into audio/Hi-fi? "Women are not interested" "they have different interests" "men are into things, women are into people"

Audio shows that are primarily high-end are, as you say, with few exceptions, "gray-haired men."

Has anyone here been to a Can-Jam? Primarily male, but much younger. About 10% were female, probably much higher than that, but wanted to be conservative.

Can-jam shows, as probably everyone knows, are produced by Head-fi, which also is Forum based.

Their numbers:

Our numbers:

At least an order of magnatude less members than Head-fi Forums, and an order of magnatude less in messages. They appaently don't have many women on their Forum either (they have a thread similar to this one (Women and headphones).

A few people have added to the original question of why woment are not audiophiles - why are there are not very many women on the ASR Forums. We have gotten off into the tall weeds on that at times, but is also applies to the age question. Why are there little to no people in their twenties on ASR or other audio forums?

Whether it is women or younger males, to know the reason why there are not more in "audio" or "audio forums" some market research/science fundamentals. are being overlooked that may play a significant part into the question posed by the thread.

The Platform - do women participate in internet forums the same as men? Is anyone aware of any public internet forums that women subscribers are equal to, or even greater than men? I know there must be, but I personally have never seen any. Back when all we had was Usenet/Newgroups/BBS I was on many that were related to concerts, bands, etc. There was a significant portion of women on those groups, most of which were in tech, or college professors, or worked for a company where you communicated through a BBS or Usenet Group, they were familar with it. My purely anecdotal experience is that over the last 20 years, rather than go to a Forum platform, women and younger males will start a Facebook group. Which can be private, and highly specific. Some media data says that the internet forum platform, reached its zenith in the 2000 to 2005 time frame. PTA Information, High School Sports Booster Associations, Neighborhood/Community Bullitin Boards have all gone from internet forums to Facebook Groups, either private or public. In all of those instances it has been female organizers who said, "do you want me to create a Facebook group to keep everyone informed?" Reddit, which is very similar to internet platforms, but much more freestyle, not as organized by subtopic, has every kind of interest you can think of, audio, vinyl, speakers, and many others, some where the majority are female subscribers.

By the way, Facebook and Reddit have built in blocks that prevent uninvited contact by PM. You don't even have to opt-in to the barriers when you join a group. It's automatic. Maybe this is why more women are on Facebook then Forums? (If this is even the case, not sure of the data on this).

Is the Audiophile a dying breed? Again, putting gender aside for a moment. Why are there so few18 to 24 people on this, or any other audio forums? That's a very significant age group (see "Software" below). Why are the shows attended by primarily people who are 50 and up? Are there less and less audiophiles, or is it that people don't become audiophiles until they hit 50 and we are just trying to figure out why more women who hit 50 become audiophiles.

Software - who buys music? Who listens to music? You know, the stuff that we are supposed to be playing through the devices we are fixated with? The numbers are vastly different, almost a paradox.

While teens tend to listen to the most music, adults who are 45+ tend to buy the most music. Music listening peaks among older teens and young adults, ages 16–24.

So listening is going to be commercial radio, free streaming platforms. I don't know if someone who pays for satalite radio or a streaming service is consider a "buyer" of music in the stats you often see from Soundscan. Obviously buying is downloads and physical media, but I'm likewise unclear about whether subscriptions are considered "buying", my guess is that they are not.

If you search "why are there so few audiophiles/females on our audio forum" there are similar threads on every one as this one. A very common question. I think try and understand that, to the extent it can be, you also need to look as the significant age gap of who participates in the forums, shows, etc.

 

[Travis]

A similar question could be asked why so few females are in to prog rock. It's like chick repellent, always has been.

"The big downside to being a prog rock star is that 99.9% of the fans are male" - Rick Wakeman

 

[Galliardist]

Do we have an answer yet?

From the photos posted in the original post, it looks like the demographic of attendees is male, 50+ (probably) not sure where they are from but suspect US. That's probably the demo of this Forum, and probably every other audio Forum.



I think a more fundamental question is, why are there not more younger people into audio/Hi-fi? "Women are not interested" "they have different interests" "men are into things, women are into people"

Audio shows that are primarily high-end are, as you say, with few exceptions, "gray-haired men."

Has anyone here been to a Can-Jam? Primarily male, but much younger. About 10% were female, probably much higher than that, but wanted to be conservative.

Can-jam shows, as probably everyone knows, are produced by Head-fi, which also is Forum based.

Their numbers:

View attachment 310152

Our numbers:

View attachment 310153

At least an order of magnatude less members than Head-fi Forums, and an order of magnatude less in messages. They appaently don't have many women on their Forum either (they have a thread similar to this one (Women and headphones).

A few people have added to the original question of why woment are not audiophiles - why are there are not very many women on the ASR Forums. We have gotten off into the tall weeds on that at times, but is also applies to the age question. Why are there little to no people in their twenties on ASR or other audio forums?

Whether it is women or younger males, to know the reason why there are not more in "audio" or "audio forums" some market research/science fundamentals. are being overlooked that may play a significant part into the question posed by the thread.

The Platform - do women participate in internet forums the same as men? Is anyone aware of any public internet forums that women subscribers are equal to, or even greater than men? I know there must be, but I personally have never seen any. Back when all we had was Usenet/Newgroups/BBS I was on many that were related to concerts, bands, etc. There was a significant portion of women on those groups, most of which were in tech, or college professors, or worked for a company where you communicated through a BBS or Usenet Group, they were familar with it. My purely anecdotal experience is that over the last 20 years, rather than go to a Forum platform, women and younger males will start a Facebook group. Which can be private, and highly specific. Some media data says that the internet forum platform, reached its zenith in the 2000 to 2005 time frame. PTA Information, High School Sports Booster Associations, Neighborhood/Community Bullitin Boards have all gone from internet forums to Facebook Groups, either private or public. In all of those instances it has been female organizers who said, "do you want me to create a Facebook group to keep everyone informed?" Reddit, which is very similar to internet platforms, but much more freestyle, not as organized by subtopic, has every kind of interest you can think of, audio, vinyl, speakers, and many others, some where the majority are female subscribers.

By the way, Facebook and Reddit have built in blocks that prevent uninvited contact by PM. You don't even have to opt-in to the barriers when you join a group. It's automatic. Maybe this is why more women are on Facebook then Forums? (If this is even the case, not sure of the data on this).

Is the Audiophile a dying breed? Again, putting gender aside for a moment. Why are there so few18 to 24 people on this, or any other audio forums? That's a very significant age group (see "Software" below). Why are the shows attended by primarily people who are 50 and up? Are there less and less audiophiles, or is it that people don't become audiophiles until they hit 50 and we are just trying to figure out why more women who hit 50 become audiophiles.

Software - who buys music? Who listens to music? You know, the stuff that we are supposed to be playing through the devices we are fixated with? The numbers are vastly different, almost a paradox.

While teens tend to listen to the most music, adults who are 45+ tend to buy the most music. Music listening peaks among older teens and young adults, ages 16–24.

So listening is going to be commercial radio, free streaming platforms. I don't know if someone who pays for satalite radio or a streaming service is consider a "buyer" of music in the stats you often see from Soundscan. Obviously buying is downloads and physical media, but I'm likewise unclear about whether subscriptions are considered "buying", my guess is that they are not.

If you search "why are there so few audiophiles/females on our audio forum" there are similar threads on every one as this one. A very common question. I think try and understand that, to the extent it can be, you also need to look as the significant age gap of who participates in the forums, shows, etc.

You really need to take into consideration post 95 of this thread. Plenty of younger people are looking at ASR.

I do also think that for most of us, entering into audiophilia has not been a good thing, has taken many of us away from good sound and listening to music rather than towards it. At some level audiophilia is just mass delusion. "Hey, why aren't more women more deluded?" puts a different spin on the question, and maybe gets us a better answer.

 

[Axo1989]

You really need to take into consideration post 95 of this thread. Plenty of younger people are looking at ASR.

I do also think that for most of us, entering into audiophilia has not been a good thing, has taken many of us away from good sound and listening to music rather than towards it. At some level audiophilia is just mass delusion. "Hey, why aren't more women more deluded?" puts a different spin on the question, and maybe gets us a better answer.

I missed that post the first time. Both gender and age distribution is different than I expected. Reader vs poster disparity maybe?

 

[Robh3606]

Simple really they think we are nuts!!!

 

[Travis]

You really need to take into consideration post 95 of this thread. Plenty of younger people are looking at ASR.

I do also think that for most of us, entering into audiophilia has not been a good thing, has taken many of us away from good sound and listening to music rather than towards it. At some level audiophilia is just mass delusion. "Hey, why aren't more women more deluded?" puts a different spin on the question, and maybe gets us a better answer.

I saw the post, and the graphs, but I saw all of the posts after that questioned or were surprised by the metrics.

I know very little about metrics company’s like that, the one I’m familiar with was Alexa which is gone. They took MySpace from a nearly 1 Billion dollar value to 35 million when Newscorp finally dumped it. Another example of shifting platforms.

So the metrics that were posted are visitors to the site, not members? Amir posted awhile ago about some numbers and if I recall it was felt that more and more people were popping in to look at reviews.

I think you have, in an indirect way answered the question: why there are not very many female audiophiles?

Women are not so easily fooled or deluded as men are. They don’t have the time to spend on inconsequential minutiae that an audiophile is interested in. They want a product that works, simple to use, and features that fit into real life. (The Soccer mom minivan). If they are mothers they will also factor in safety.

Before someone says, what about $5,000+
handbags? They know they are not paying for increased functionality, they are not fooled by that in the least. It’s an example of economic principles discussed as far back as the late 1800s in The Leisure Class and the follow up, and specificity the principle of emulation. They don’t expect designer goods to perform or function better, in fact they know up front that it may be the opposite, they purchase items like that because it satisfies a completely different want.

 

[theREALdotnet]

I had forgotten. I used to enjoy CD browsing/buying there. There and also at Borders (which didn't survive). Ahhh the old days.

I loved Borders. The best place to buy classical CDs.

 

[antcollinet]

Before someone says, what about $5,000+
handbags?

I don't know why this keeps coming up. I don't know anyone (I don't even know OF anyone, outside people on the tv) who is in that category. I don't even know anyone who would buy a handbag at the cost of my relatively modest speakers - around 1/5th of that 5000.

Most people I know would be questioning themselves if they are spending 1/50th of that on a handbag. I do know one person who buys expensive bags. She might spend around £300 - for something special.

 

[computer-audiophile]

I think the ASR site is not representative as a community of 'audiophiles' and music lovers, maybe even the opposite. After all, many members here are concerned with supposed technical objectivity and take it very seriously.

I know of other audio forums where some women actually participate. How do I know that? In the German Analogue Audio Association forum, virtual meetings were held as Zoom conferences, and I participated a few times.

 

[Travis]

I don't know why this keeps coming up. I don't know anyone (I don't even know OF anyone, outside people on the tv) who is in that category. I don't even know anyone who would buy a handbag at the cost of my relatively modest speakers - around 1/5th of that 5000.

Most people I know would be questioning themselves if they are spending 1/50th of that on a handbag. I do know aone person who buys expensive bags. She might spend around £300 - for something special.

I don’t know either. But I do know many women who have bags in that category, including my wife, and in our area I will see 5 or 10 a day depending on where I’m at and if I’m paying attention. I don’t think the “we audiophiles spend this, but women will spend this on a bag/pair of shoes” analogy/argument works at all. I think it’s a common cocktail party response to when the “men and their toys” topic gets raised.

The demand for luxury/designer fashion goods is fueled by both genders. Examples of the British brands for men include Turnbill & Asher ($500 dress shirts), Davidoff, all of Jermyn St. really. That’s the birthplace of men’s fashion, along with the Row for bespoke suits. The wait for a suit is 8 to 12 months, they start at $3K, cost more like $6K+. They are the shirt makers and tailors to kings and princes (and commoners like me).

How many men do you know who wear Sunspel? Now that’s a men’s luxury brand I just can’t understand the price vs. performance even if you factor in the status quotient (except their underwear).

There are plenty of both genders who buy luxury apparel, it’s not limited to one gender or the other. Emulation is the best economic explanation I have seen for the demand of luxury apparel brands and there is no gender gap on that.

 

[Travis]

I think the ASR site is not representative as a community of 'audiophiles' and music lovers, maybe even the opposite. After all, many members here are concerned with supposed technical objectivity and take it very seriously.

I know of other audio forums where some women actually participate. How do I know that? In the German Analogue Audio Association forum, virtual meetings were held as Zoom conferences, and I participated a few times.

Were the women who participated consumers/end users or affiliated with a manufacturer/retailer?

 

[computer-audiophile]

Were the women who participated consumers/end users or affiliated with a manufacturer/retailer?

I remember an original middle-aged lady who turned the tables, so to speak, by not taking the men quite seriously with their craziness.

She had a very strong sense of self-confidence and humor and actually a well-chosen and expensive hi-fi, imo. She was nothing else as a normal audiophile private person with good taste. Ladies like that are very rare in audio circles. However, I know female sound artists who are very much into technology and also know a lot about it.

 

[pseudoid]

Women are not so easily fooled or deluded as men are.

Got any #s?

 

[kemmler3D]

why are there not more younger people into audio/Hi-fi?

I don't have hard data on this, but younger people are definitely into hi-fi (check r/budgetaudiophiles for evidence) but they mostly concern themselves with IEMs, portable setups, and desktop setups. A modest bookshelf 2.1 or 2.1 system in the living room is arleady stretch for most people under 30.

It's not hard to figure out why - not many people under the age of 40 (at the youngest) has enough cash and dedicated living space for a large 2-channel setup? There is a profusion of data on how Millennials and Gen Z simply don't have the disposable income that older generations did and currently do.

I would also say there's a diverting impulse for audiophilia in the form of music production among younger people. In the 70s and 80s, having a home recording setup was still pretty challenging and would be worlds apart from a real recording studio. In the past 20 years, DAWs, headphones, and nearfield monitors have advanced to the point that anyone with a few grand to spare can have a pro-tier setup at home. (That is not to say pro skills come with it, but the interest is there.) Dollars that might have gone to listening-only setups in the past are now going into music software and prosumer recording equipment today.

Look at Behringer. They're putting out another $100-200 hardware synth every other month, it seems. There's a ton of activity in the software DAW world. This is not just parallel to audiophile gear, it also competes with it. This is a category of audio equipment that looked very different 30-50 years ago.

I myself got into audio on the digital creation side first, then got more interested in speakers as time went on.

 

[Robbo99999]

The recent thread where the (supposedly) female member asks for information about THD in amplifiers made me think. After three pages on that thread and reply from the OP, it's pretty obvious that the member is not the psychologist Erin English. So for any lonely audio nuts out there, sadly we have not got an attractive blond female in the hobby, you're just going to have to continue solo. Thanks to the reviewer community, we do know that female partners are interested in some aspects of HiFi, as they are known to appear in the reviewers listening room, having rushed from the kitchen, to meet the musicians currently performing in their house. However, the interest appears to end there.

In my own experience I have not met a single solitary female who has any interest in sound reproduction equipment at all. My dear wife for example, was perfectly happy to listen to her Spotify playlists on the awful built-in speakers in our TV but since I set up the O-NOORUS amp and the Q Audio speakers, she has certainly appreciated the improvement and has told me so on several occasions. Is she interested in the specs of the gear though? Nope, she just wants to listen to her music and it doesn't really bother her what it's being reproduced by.

The higher-end we go, the absence of women is more than obvious. I skimmed through a few websites with photos of HiFi shows from around the world and the demographic is uniform across all the events. With a few exceptions, grey haired men. Nonetheless, the crowd is 99%+ male regardless of age.
View attachment 309619
View attachment 309620
View attachment 309622
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There's a couple of women in the third image but it's likely they are long-suffering spouses who are there to be consulted on whatever the Audiophile wishes to purchase, for approval purposes.

So as a segment of the population, there is an almost perfect lack of interest from females in HiFi sound reproduction equipment and I'm not sure you could say that about many hobbies.

Fascinating isn't it!

I think it's because males have more tendency for obsession, and particularly for things that ultimately aren't that important in life. Ok, women can be obsessive about some stuff, but I don't think you see many obsessive stamp collecting women nuts or obsessive train & plane spotters - most of this kind of somewhat misplaced obsession is happening in males. I think males have a tendency/drive for greater focus & general obsession anyway. If you don't have an "important" obsession in your life then why not choose audio, or something else of equal relative unimportance - I think you have to have an outlet for your obsessive tendencies! By the way I'm still a little bit obsessive about striving for audio nirvana, albeit not as much as I was, probably because I've come to realise I'm probably already pretty close to it, and also depends on how much other stuff you have going on in your life.

 

[Robbo99999]

Don't think so. These are the creatures who will pay a few thousand for a designer handbag which is basically a fabric or leather bag to carry stuff.

Although that's more an obsession about social status, and although it's an irrational act hankering after a stupidly overpriced handbag, the underlying social status drive is probably more rational overall than audiophile obsession. Although I do think it's kinda disgusting re the overpriced handbag and the "weakness" associated with needing to have that obsession.

 

[Travis]

It's not hard to figure out why - not many people under the age of 40 (at the youngest) has enough cash and dedicated living space for a large 2-channel setup? There is a profusion of data on how Millennials and Gen Z simply don't have the disposable income that older generations did and currently do.

Thus a shift in the print and online audio magazines to move towards realistic priced systems over the last 10 years.

Thus, Harman, through research proving you don’t need to spend crazy money to have good/excellent audio. Every presentation I have seen Floyd tool do on his research he makes a point of pointing out that at least one of the speakers in the comparison that measured very well had budget pricing. Pointing out that if you knew what to look for you can find good performing speakers.

Steve Gutenberg, love him hate him, his focus is on the new and younger person getting into audio, thus his numbers. Probably why he went independent, he isn’t beholden to any favorite brands a magazine may have.

The influencers, Daily Audio for example, are in their 30s?, focus on affordable home theater, thus their numbers.

The premise here is, money doesn’t always equal performance. Measurements matter.

However, the US vs. Them that’s inherent with all the major audio forums, still pervades. I think that’s just human nature and group/social dynamics. Other forums get grouped/categorized (stereotyped) here, just as ASR is painted with broad strokes in those other groups. “They only think Genelec is worth buying.” In essence, snobbery, which by the way isn’t tolerated in science and the prestigious journals.

I believe that the 20 to 30s+ crowd isn’t interested in Forums (except Head-fi obviously). They are on going YouTube and listening to someone they can relate to, that talks their language, review products in their budgets. I think some do pop in here to read a review, but would never get bogged down in joining and participating. A few do come in and post a question, and you can typically tell their age range, not always, but depending on their question, the response/treatment is such they won’t ask another question, or will just leave. Not always, and I certainly don’t see all of the good, or the bad new member questions.

I think this was part of the reason why Amir started the “Let’s Be Nicer” to new members thread, but total speculation.

Perhaps a focus on what the best budget products and speakers from previous reviews is in order - easy to find, and even color coded on the bar chart

 

[antcollinet]

It's not hard to figure out why - not many people under the age of 40 (at the youngest) has enough cash and dedicated living space for a large 2-channel setup? There is a profusion of data on how Millennials and Gen Z simply don't have the disposable income that older generations did and currently do.

It's related.

But more (I think) because the mainstream audio industry has everyone convinced you can't have a 2 channel setup worth a damn for less than £10K.

Whereas we know it is quite possible for less than 1/10th of that.

 

[kemmler3D]

believe that the 20 to 30s+ crowd isn’t interested in Forums (except Head-fi obviously). They are on going YouTube and listening to someone they can relate to, that talks their language, review products in their budgets. I think some do pop in here to read a review, but would never get bogged down in joining and participating.

Probably true. A lot of people my age (38) and even more so with younger folks I know, use YouTube as their go-to. Personally I find that format excruciatingly tedious compared to reading the same thing, but I'm well aware that I'm an outlier.

Also, forum-forums haven't been super popular with younger folks for a while. Those of us who were online in the 90s are pretty accustomed to them. Everyone else will tend to gravitate to social media sites like Reddit if they intend to converse on the topic.

"The medium is the message", and the message in this case is that audiophile speakers are not a young person's game.

 

[danadam]

The problem is you set up, deliberately, highly loaded terms

Seems to me you did it first with:

If the woman isn't attracted to the man, it is creepy and if she is, then it isn't creepy. It can be done in the best, more sensitive way possible, if she isn't attracted, then it is "creepy".

You seem to suggest that if a guy goes through aforementioned steps of social interaction 101 but misreads the signals, then still it will always/often be "creepy" and reported as "unwanted request to go on a date". Somehow I'm not convinced that to be true.