What is "good enough"?

[Timcognito]

User of only Netflix and LinkedIn.
Netflix for the kids, LinkedIn for my professional acquaintances. LinkedIn has a lot of spam and sh** though. I consider it a necessary evil to keep me updated.

Same here but finally dumped Linkedin, so just music and movie streaming for me. But lets not hijack the audio theme. I'm the biggest culprit of that.

 

[Victor Martell]

Perhaps there is room for an "engineer" that identifies "knee-points" before the diminishing returns and assesses quality in "objective metrics per $" and assesses real-world constraints such as WAF?

I do apologize - I am replying before reading the whole thread - conversation might have moved on and I am so dumb that can't find how to multi-quote

1.- Kind of joking but not really - the "enlightened" in the original post? I wouldn't have call them that!
2.- Regarding the quote above, +1 - I think I have come up with a simple analogy for this - for most anything, if you spend A LOT OF MONEY for, let's say a widget, more or less, your are getting something good. That is, by spending money, your are avoiding having to be informed with actual research (not marketing spiel)... knowledge in a way...

BUT

The sign that you know your stuff is when you spend, let's say (and this is just something I just pulled of my BBB ) 10% of the price for 90% of the performance. For many devices being an engineer definitely helps with that. And on top of everything, in audiophilia, given we are dealing with subjective opinions tied to the very fallible human ear... I think the threshold is amazingly low. $100 will get you 99.99% of the performance!

 

[mppix]

I do apologize - I am replying before reading the whole thread - conversation might have moved on and I am so dumb that can't find how to multi-quote

1.- Kind of joking but not really - the "enlightened" in the original post? I wouldn't have call them that!
2.- Regarding the quote above, +1 - I think I have come up with a simple analogy for this - for most anything, if you spend A LOT OF MONEY for, let's say a widget, more or less, your are getting something good. That is, by spending money, your are avoiding having to be informed with actual research (not marketing spiel)... knowledge in a way...

BUT

The sign that you know your stuff is when you spend, let's say (and this is just something I just pulled of my BBB ) 10% of the price for 90% of the performance. For many devices being an engineer definitely helps with that. And on top of everything, in audiophilia, given we are dealing with subjective opinions tied to the very fallible human ear... I think the threshold is amazingly low. $100 will get you 99.99% of the performance!

How do you measure the 99.99%? What is 100%?

 

[bodhi]

How do you measure the 99.99%? What is 100%?

That is too simplified, I agree.

But as a thought experiment one can think why some people, who might be passionate about music, are completely fine using a bluetooth speaker. Even if they are introduced to much better sounding devices they could easily afford. I'm sure there is nothing wrong with their hearing or how their brains interpret sound waves. They get close to 100% of what they are after.

Sometimes these people change their opinion though: they get into hifi and might spend tens of thousands even after being satisfied for a long, long time without hifi equipment. The music didn't change, their hearing for sure didn't improve. So what changed?

One can create another experiment: take your setup to storage for a couple of months and start using a bluetooth speaker. I bet that after a week or the test subject is not in constant agony because of inferior sound reproduction and doesn't have any withdrawal symptoms.

 

[Joe Smith]

I think it's good to be able to enjoy music in many ways and levels of SQ. It would be a real pain to only be able to listen on my "best" system and feel satisfaction. I too always pack an Anker or Jawbone Bluetooth speaker for vacations, and always enjoy the convenience of using them.

I've amassed a lot of gear over the past two decades in particular - my goal as I turn 65 is just to enjoy what I have and use, sell off or give away the other stuff, and get off the update train.

Most of my purchases in the past decade have been lower-end, because I love the energy in that category and how much good sound is obtainable for so little coin.

I think while some people are able to hear minute differences in SQ, I can't, so it's freeing to not be focused on the last 1% of perfection. The Princess and the Pea...I'm not.

 

[MattHooper]

Are they going to have the pointless bling that the narcissists want? No. But you'll have a cracking system that reproduces the input signal quite nicely.

Do you perhaps live in a slate-gray colored interior in your home, furniture as cheap and bland as possible, no adornments in your home at all?

Or do you care about aesthetics in your home?

If you buy something because you cared about aesthetics, does that make you a "narcissist?"

It's narcissism.

Careful. A tendency of disparaging the motivations of others, where you consider yourself above such things, can be a sign of narcissism.

 

[MattHooper]

• social: the listening room is open for social gatherings and the sweet spot must extend over a minimal area, which may be a couch or more

If we have to choose, I'd fit the above category I think.

I'm a social type, not a loner. I enjoy being out of the house (doing things, being with people) more than in the house. In fact some of my friends are puzzled that I want to come to their house to hang out when I have built what, to them, is an entertainment paradise room (elaborate home theater/2 channel stuff). I used to go watch movies at my friend's place even when they had just an old CRT (not that long ago!) and a $30 DVD player. They kept asking why I'd bother and how can I stand watching anything there vs on my big screen? Well, because for me being with others enriches experience. Even today I'd rather watch a movie on a substandard movie theater screen, with gum all over the floor, just to experience a movie with a crowd, vs alone in my own home theater. But...that's why I have friends and family over so often to watch movies or listen to music. To that end my seating is a custom built giant sectional sofa that fits a lot of people (rather than going for separate, fewer HT chairs).

Admittedly like many audiophiles I end up listening to music alone most of the time - most people aren't clamoring to listen to music like an audiophile. But I prefer company.

 

[Victor Martell]

How do you measure the 99.99%? What is 100%?

with measurements !

But you are arguing about the tree. Not sure what you are trying to argue here, but my forest is that basically you don't have to spend a lot of money to get well performing things, in almost anything, specially if your are informed and know what you are doing. Or in other words that my $150 DAC is indistinguishable from a $10K one. And the more you know, the less likely to pick the $10K one.

 

[ozzy9832001]

That is too simplified, I agree.

But as a thought experiment one can think why some people, who might be passionate about music, are completely fine using a bluetooth speaker. Even if they are introduced to much better sounding devices they could easily afford. I'm sure there is nothing wrong with their hearing or how their brains interpret sound waves. They get close to 100% of what they are after.

Sometimes these people change their opinion though: they get into hifi and might spend tens of thousands even after being satisfied for a long, long time without hifi equipment. The music didn't change, their hearing for sure didn't improve. So what changed?

One can create another experiment: take your setup to storage for a couple of months and start using a bluetooth speaker. I bet that after a week or the test subject is not in constant agony because of inferior sound reproduction and doesn't have any withdrawal symptoms.

This is kind of how I was. I had a cheap 2.1 system I picked up off Amazon...no name brand and it worked well for my wants at the time. I had that system for ages.

Then one day, I felt like I needed better sound.

After falling down the rabbit hole, I realized what I was always missing from my music experience. I just wish I pulled the trigger a lot sooner.

 

[mppix]

That is too simplified, I agree.

But as a thought experiment one can think why some people, who might be passionate about music, are completely fine using a bluetooth speaker. Even if they are introduced to much better sounding devices they could easily afford. I'm sure there is nothing wrong with their hearing or how their brains interpret sound waves. They get close to 100% of what they are after.

Sometimes these people change their opinion though: they get into hifi and might spend tens of thousands even after being satisfied for a long, long time without hifi equipment. The music didn't change, their hearing for sure didn't improve. So what changed?

One can create another experiment: take your setup to storage for a couple of months and start using a bluetooth speaker. I bet that after a week or the test subject is not in constant agony because of inferior sound reproduction and doesn't have any withdrawal symptoms.

Excellent point. Overspending has little to do with sound quality but is, possibly, a sign for not being satisfied with the experience. Audiophilia may also have similarities with drug addiction where people chase an exceptional experience or impression for a lifetime without ever being able to recreate it consistently. I would not have the experience to make that assessment myself I just know that is not how humans work.

However, there are sound quality issues that are easy to pick out by anybody, make sound objectively more enjoyable, and don't require AB testing.

It is trivial to distinguish a good bluetooth speaker, e.g. a wonderboom, from a bookshelf speaker or a fullrange speaker.
Bluetooth speakers lack part of (or have uneven) mids and bass; bookshelf speakers lack low bass.
However, I'm not sure if anyone gets gets withdrawal symptoms.

 

[Palladium]

I went to hear REQ'ed KH120 IIs at nearfield in a pro shop expecting to be completely blown away but came out didn't. Just a bit more mids and less highs than my uncorrected 305Ps to my ears, and that's about it.

 

[mppix]

with measurements !

But you are arguing about the tree. Not sure what you are trying to argue here, but my forest is that basically you don't have to spend a lot of money to get well performing things, in almost anything, specially if your are informed and know what you are doing. Or in other words that my $150 DAC is indistinguishable from a $10K one. And the more you know, the less likely to pick the $10K one.

There seem to be many ways to draw the "good enough" line, some even draw their "good enough" as SOTA. Some fun examples are
- We care a lot about SINAD: DACs should be >120dB and speaker amps should be >100dB (pick your "good enough" numbers) to play redbook digital, which is the state of the art.
- The 80-90year old vinyl is not "good enough" but the 40-45year old CD is the state of the art
- 24bit lossless streaming not needed.
- Speakers tend to be even fun as their assessment has a lot more variables.

I don't think anyone in particular is correct or wrong but we should celebrate our differences.

 

[Killingbeans]

To those of us, who are hopelessly entangled with the hobby, "good enough" is a personal thing, not necessarily dictated by logic.

For most people "good enough" is whatever doesn't stop the music from being enjoyable.

 

[Mart68]

At work Friday evening everyone else gone home, I have half an hour to go. 'Planet Rock' playing some good old stuff out of the single driver built into in the computer tower sat under the desk.

Absolutely sublime experience , really enjoyed it.

Now at home listening to SOTA digital front end with Krell and big Focal towers in treated room, does it sound 'better'? - well duh. But the net experience is about the same to that Friday night.

I long since came to conclusion that if there's not something obviously wrong in the sound then it's 'good enough' and everything else is about where our heads are at the time.

Having said that would I give up having a proper hi-fi? No chance. A man should own a proper hi-fi that's just the way it is.

 

[LouB]

At our dinner, we could not find system that is "good enough" for everybody. Perhaps we did miss something important or perhaps it is for the better if the question has more than one answer.

I'm curious what folks here think.

Just remember it is all for good (and well intended) fun.

If you could we'd all be wearing the exact same clothes. Maybe I'm missing the point but it's hard believe this discussion went as far as it did.

 

[mppix]

If you could we'd all be wearing the exact same clothes. Maybe I'm missing the point but it's hard believe this discussion went as far as it did.

What is "good enough"?

I just spend a dinner with friends discussing this and we could not agree - as so often - but we came up with some points of views that we all adopted at various times: The scientist: requires that a component must reproduce audio beyond what can be detected by a listener. Scientists may use...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[SorenTyson]

Good enough is individual and when that individual no longer gets more joy from any improvement:

Could be not audible for that individual
Could be only audible when really focused and doing an ab test
Could be audible but for the individual no preference between before/after

 

[Waxx]

I enjoyed my old Dual receiver and Goodman speakers for years in my teenage years without any 'missing something", and are a music freak since birth almost. I was dj and musician (cello/bass guitar) at those years. But i started to work in studio's from time to time and restoring speakers for others so i got bitten by the diy virus and when the Dual died, i started to buy vintage stuff and repair it to sell to find cheap good gear for my own and learn how stuff works. Later on i started to make my own stuff, but those Goodman speakers are still in my posession and still got used because i still love them. The dual receiver is dead, but i still got a similar more modern (21st century) marantz receiver that also still got daily use.

I can enjoy music on any half decent setup, that is not the issue, but i like to have better also because i love good sound. And better for me is not more expensive (i'm a bit a cheapskate) or shiny or fancy. Half of my setup is diy, and partly recycled stuff, and it does not look fancy at all. It's pure better sound for my ears. And my definition of good sound is different than the technical one (but it's subjective personal one). My quest is just a combination of my nerdy side and my music freak side.

 

[computer-audiophile]

I enjoyed my old Dual receiver and Goodman speakers for years in my teenage years without any 'missing something", and are a music freak since birth almost. I was dj and musician (cello/bass guitar) at those years. But i started to work in studio's from time to time and restoring speakers for others so i got bitten by the diy virus and when the Dual died, i started to buy vintage stuff and repair it to sell to find cheap good gear for my own and learn how stuff works. Later on i started to make my own stuff, but those Goodman speakers are still in my posession and still got used because i still love them. The dual receiver is dead, but i still got a similar more modern (21st century) marantz receiver that also still got daily use.

I can enjoy music on any half decent setup, that is not the issue, but i like to have better also because i love good sound. And better for me is not more expensive (i'm a bit a cheapskate) or shiny or fancy. Half of my setup is diy, and partly recycled stuff, and it does not look fancy at all. It's pure better sound for my ears. And my definition of good sound is different than the technical one (but it's subjective personal one). My quest is just a combination of my nerdy side and my music freak side.

Nice story. You seem to be well connected with the medium and the music. Do you have a photo of your setup? Since I also like to build things myself, I am curious.

 

[Waxx]

I got many setups in most of the rooms of my house, but this is my main music setup while programming minidsp a while ago. It's the only picture i have at the moment (i'm on holiday).

speakers are diy, one is a waw with a Mark Audio 10.3 top and a Scanspeak 26W8534G00 woofer, the other is an MLTL with the Mark Audio CHN110. In the corner you see my Goodman Mezzo SL's standing, disconnected at that time. Sources are a custom pc running JRiver on windows 10, a cheap old Hama streamer (for FM/DAB and webradio) and an original Technics SL1500 tunrtable with an AT-VM95En cell and a Cambridge CP2 phono stage. all come toghetter to the MiniDSP flex that does crossover when needed, room correction and dac. The WAW has a Prima Luna Prologue 4 tube amp on top and a Audiophonics MPA-S125NC power amp on the woofer, the CHN110 is feeded with a semi diy (heavy modded from original) tube preamp and a Audiophonics MPA-S125NC power amp.

This is one of my setups, there are more in my office, bedroom, kitchen and workshop that are all at least partially diy.