Why are coaxials so rare?

[Tks]

It's not entirely a fair comparison, but with Genelecs you're getting smoother on and off axis response, especially vertically, and integration with GLM. With Geithains you're getting cardioid bass, which is a big deal.

Hey pozz, can you help me understand that last bit? What's the benefit of cardiod bass?

 

[pozz]

Hey pozz, can you help me understand that last bit? What's the benefit of cardiod bass?

Let's look at the Geithain S&R polar measurement (the anechoic chamber they use is limited to 100Hz, so below was put together using nearfield techniques):

And then Geithain's own plot: https://www.me-geithain.de/en/rl-944k.html

And then look at a Geithain sub plot (irritatingly, the graph is exactly the same for each of Basis 11K, 13K, 14K): https://www.me-geithain.de/en/basis-13k.html

Main thing is the that each of the 180° traces (i.e., measured from the rear of the speaker) show significantly less output than the 0° traces (measured from the front). That reduces the amount of energy travelling from the back of the speaker to the wall and bouncing back into the room towards you at some delay. That should make for steadier FR and an easier time EQing.

It's arguably more important to have a cardioid response across the full spectrum since it limits SBIR and ensures more direct sound reaches your ears. Thing is, a cardioid design causes an increase in nonlinear distortion, somewhat limits total output and is likely not cost effective given other techniques (combination of multisubs, EQ, treatment).

Check out how hard it is to tell the difference with these spatially averaged measurements below.

Geithain vs. Genelec

In room D&D measurements others have posted also show that cardioid radiation won't cure everything.

Soffit mounting and a lot of front wall absorption are also supported by similar reasoning.

 

[Pearljam5000]

It's not entirely a fair comparison, but with Genelecs you're getting smoother on and off axis response, especially vertically, and integration with GLM. With Geithains you're getting cardioid bass, which is a big deal.

If it was your $$$ which one would you buy?

 

[pozz]

If it was your $$$ which one would you buy?

It's like 9k EUR for a pair of those Geithains.

I guess if I had the furniture bug some audiophiles have about speakers, I'd get Geithains with a nice finish. Make no mistake, they are good.

But since I'm a nerd I'd get Genelecs.

(I've been holding off spending a lot of money on a new, more serious pair because I'm waiting for an updated version of the Neumann KH420 to come out or a floorstanding version of the D&D 8c (which @Martijn Mensink mentioned as being in development in his interview with @jtwrace). Also, I'm excited for high resolution measurements of the Danley Hyperion. After comparing all those with the Genelecs I'd make my choice.)

 

[Pearljam5000]

It's like 9k EUR for a pair of those Geithains.

I guess if I had the furniture bug some audiophiles have about speakers, I'd get Geithains with a nice finish. Make no mistake, they are good.

But since I'm a nerd I'd get Genelecs.

(I've been holding off spending a lot of money on a new, more serious pair because I'm waiting for an updated version of the Neumann KH420 to come out or a floorstanding version of the D&D 8c (which @Martijn Mensink mentioned as being in development in his interview with @jtwrace). Also, I'm excited for high resolution measurements of the Danley Hyperion. After comparing all those with the Genelecs I'd make my choice.)

Neumann haven't updated the KH310 and KH 120 so I doubt they'll update the KH420 anytime soon.

 

[pozz]

If it was your $$$ which one would you buy?

I've not sure if you've bought anything yet, and I know you've been looking, but a nice interim solution are the KH80s + sub. They have excellent horizontal and vertical directivity, basically like a coaxial. There are only two drawbacks I can name: they can't play loud and have no real directivity control below 1kHz.

Neumann haven't updated the KH310 and KH 120 so I doubt they'll update the KH420 anytime soon.

My reasoning is that the KH80 did very well and they introduced the KH750, so DSP versions of all of their speakers are likely in the works. It simplifies things on the production line as well if you're relying on DSP adjustments.

I don't mind waiting a few years in the interim to see what else comes out.

 

[TimVG]

In room D&D measurements others have posted also show that cardioid radiation won't cure everything

D&D 8C is omni at low frequencies where the woofers take over - once you reach the modal region in a (living) room it's very debatable if directivity control matters at all.

 

[Sancus]

As a North American it is not easy to realise for you that those "handful," which is in fact 27 countries, have a larger GDP than US and vastly larger market. EU has 446 million inhabitants - the world’s third largest population after China and India. This is not including countries like Switzerland, Norway and Turkey where there is no import duty.

In fact why bother sell in US when you have a good market share in EU? LOL

I didn't say a word about NA, yet you seem deeply defensive for some reason so I'm not gonna go into that personal problem. I'm far from the first person to comment on how poor their distribution seems to be, even in the EU itself. They're not on Thomann, for example. When you're selling a niche product like studio monitors you want to be in as many markets as possible, Genelec and Neumann didn't become so widely known by sticking to one region. Asia and Latin America are both huge markets. And the US is probably the biggest pro audio market in the world, it's not about population, but money and size of the film/tv/music industries. There's a reason Genelec gets away with overcharging for their products in the US more than anywhere else.

 

[sarumbear]

I didn't say a word about NA, yet you seem deeply defensive for some reason so I'm not gonna go into that personal problem. I'm far from the first person to comment on how poor their distribution seems to be, even in the EU itself. They're not on Thomann, for example. When you're selling a niche product like studio monitors you want to be in as many markets as possible, Genelec and Neumann didn't become so widely known by sticking to one region. Asia and Latin America are both huge markets. And the US is probably the biggest pro audio market in the world, it's not about population, but money and size of the film/tv/music industries. There's a reason Genelec gets away with overcharging for their products in the US more than anywhere else.

Maybe they should hire you as a marketing advisor..

 

[Honken]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

ME Gethain aren't the only ones with a poor distributor network. Ask any EU-resident about prices and availability of Revel speakers and you'll quickly realize that ME Gethain aren't the only ones with poor availability. But that doesn't really matter, the only thing that matters is what you can source locally.

If you can score a specific brand locally, good for you. If you can't, chances are you can find some other brand locally.

For what it is worth, I live next to Finland and even here Genelec availability is rather spotty. Pricing for Genelecs higher end Genelec speakers is usually listed as "contact us for pricing". I don't hold that against Genelec. Just like I don't hold Revels pricing against Harman.

 

[voodooless]

I guess it’s also a matter of willingness to push your product into the market in a certain way. You have to commit to being a certain style of company, and it has to suit you. From what I’ve seen it looks like this little company from a small sleepy East German village is rather traditional (which doesn’t mean they can’t be innovative). Possibly they don’t need massive sales and can make decent money by staying smaller. Margins are probably quite good, which helps a lot.

 

[aac]

The biggest downside of Geithain is that they're not a realistic purchase outside of a small handful of EU countries. Unless you fancy an extremely expensive import that you can't see or hear beforehand, with no local dealer support and shipping back to Germany at your expense in case of any issues. Assuming they even honor their warranties outside of the EU.

For such good speakers you'd think they would try selling them in more places, lol.

For some reason I often see Geithain in photos of Japanese studios. Which is quite far from Germany.

 

[hardisj]

FWIW, I just posted a review of the Seas Excel C18EN002/A (E0060) 6.5" Coaxial on my YT channel if you're interested. It was an impromptu live stream so no fancy editing or photos.

Link to data is provided in the description there. This contains the impedance phase/magnitude as well as 0/15/30/45/60 for both the midrange and the tweeter. You'll surely have to alter the output to get it in a format for whatever program you use. But if you can use a crossover program I'm pretty sure you can figure out what to do with this data to get it loaded in there.

 

[voodooless]

FWIW, I just posted a review of the Seas Excel C18EN002/A (E0060) 6.5" Coaxial on my YT channel if you're interested. It was an impromptu live stream so no fancy editing or photos.

Link to data is provided in the description there. This contains the impedance phase/magnitude as well as 0/15/30/45/60 for both the midrange and the tweeter. You'll surely have to alter the output to get it in a format for whatever program you use. But if you can use a crossover program I'm pretty sure you can figure out what to do with this data to get it loaded in there.

That actually looks pretty good overall. It's a shame this unit is so expensive. From what I can see you will inevitably end up with a distortion rise around the crossover. 2 kHz is a bit too high for the woofer, and a bit too low for the tweeter. A 5"-ish version of this would probably have been a bit better. The high-frequency dispersion is quite good for a coaxial though, especially since there is no phase plug on this thing.

Is the data going to be on your site as well? Now I have to plug the graphs from the Youtube video, since not all data is in the files you published

 

[hardisj]

That actually looks pretty good overall. It's a shame this unit is so expensive. From what I can see you will inevitably end up with a distortion rise around the crossover. 2 kHz is a bit too high for the woofer, and a bit too low for the tweeter. A 5"-ish version of this would probably have been a bit better. The high-frequency dispersion is quite good for a coaxial though, especially since there is no phase plug on this thing.

Is the data going to be on your site as well? Now I have to plug the graphs from the Youtube video, since not all data is in the files you published

What other data do you need (for sim purposes) that isn’t uploaded?

 

[voodooless]

What other data do you need (for sim purposes) that isn’t uploaded?

Distortion for instance? Waterfall would be nice.

 

[hardisj]

Distortion for instance? Waterfall would be nice.

The distortion is in the video but is not provided as a text file because you can’t do anything with it. The data I provided for download is for sim purposes for people to load into their favorite speaker/crossover design software.

 

[voodooless]

The distortion is in the video but is not provided as a text file because you can’t do anything with it. The data I provided for download is for sim purposes for people to load into their favorite speaker/crossover design software.

Don't need the raw data, But the graphs would be nice

The raw data could still be useful, you can extrapolate the distortion when the filters are applied. It's not perfect but gives an indication. But as I said, graphs are more than fine.

 

[hardisj]

Don't need the raw data, But the graphs would be nice

But you said that you can see that in the video. I can upload the pictures. But this is what you said …

Is the data going to be on your site as well? Now I have to plug the graphs from the Youtube video, since not all data is in the files you published

Which implied that the stuff you need to “plug” is for sim. That is why I asked specifically what you needed in download form.

So, you want the graphs. You don’t need the data for modeling purposes. Correct? I’m asking because I want to make sure those who need to load data into their sim have what they need in text form for that purpose.

 

[voodooless]

But you said that you can see that in the video. I can upload the pictures. But this is what you said …

Yes, but it's not very convenient as an archival medium. For sure it's better than nothing. Really appreciate the effort.

Which says that the stuff you need to “plug” is for sim. That is why I asked specifically what you needed in download form.

Graphs I can also download