Why are coaxials so rare?

[KSTR]

[...] otherwise we will still have recordings that sound only good with euphonically deviating loudspeakers like Geithain, B&W etc

So you are saying all of the many recordings monitored with Geithains, notably from the classic genre, are spoiled and sound skewed on other speakers? I don't think so.

 

[KSTR]

What?

Personal impressions of the limited set of Genelec's I've heard so far, and shared by many others, including many recording industry professionals. And EQ doesn't seem to fix it.
YMMV, one man's "harsh" is another man's "detailed"...

 

[thewas]

So you are saying all of the many recordings monitored with Geithains, notably from the classic genre, are spoiled and sound skewed on other speakers? I don't think so.

Well, if they sound like you say earbleeding with neutral loudspeakers like Genelec they should have some tonal deviation.

 

[TimVG]

I've never found Genelecs to be overly detailed let alone earbleedingly harsh, and I've heard plenty. There is one exception where the monitors were placed on a console surrounded by a bunch of other stuff. That was a terrible experience, for which we can't blame the monitors. Anyhow, there's nothing in the data as well that points towards Genelecs in general having a 'house sound' that could be called harsh.

In terms of Geithains I've only auditioned the 801K - it sounded very nice as well. They measure a bit rougher though. No one's claiming they aren't neutral or aren't well designed. The measurements don't lie however. How much of this is audible or even preferable is up for debate. Personally I don't care as in terms of price I find them all to be past the point of diminishing returns.

 

[TimVG]

It's also funny that there is a contrast among groups of professionals. I've hear the story of the 'fatiguing' Genelecs, and also the opposite where they 'sound too pleasant and make you think a mix is finished before it really is'

Go figure

 

[Pearljam5000]

It's also funny that there is a contrast among groups of professionals. I've hear the story of the 'fatiguing' Genelecs, and also the opposite where they 'sound too pleasant and make you think a mix is finished before it really is'

Go figure

Genelecs are the most polarizing monitors on the planet, just look at that giant "love / hate relationship with Genelec" on Gearslutz

 

[voodooless]

Here is some comparison data from the same source: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...1b-w371a-vs-ultimate-preamp.19859/post-658691

There is a clear distortion advantage below 100Hz, due to the massive woofer. Otherwise, except for the hump between 200 and 300 Hz, it's about equal. But the Genelelec is much more smooth, both on and off-axis.

 

[TimVG]

Here is some comparison data from the same source: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...1b-w371a-vs-ultimate-preamp.19859/post-658691

There is a clear distortion advantage below 100Hz, due to the massive woofer. Otherwise, except for the hump between 200 and 300 Hz, it's about equal. But the Genelelec is much more smooth, both on and off-axis.

The passive cardioid configuration is also very inefficient in the low bass, requiring a lot of correction.

 

[thewas]

It's also funny that there is a contrast among groups of professionals. I've hear the story of the 'fatiguing' Genelecs, and also the opposite where they 'sound too pleasant and make you think a mix is finished before it really is'

Go figure

Yes, the same kind of never dying stories like that Yamaha electronics sound cold and Marantz warm...

 

[TimVG]

Yes, the same kind of never dying stories like that Yamaha electronics sound cold and Marantz warm...

You know, there may be something to that
I once did an ABX test between the output signal of a Meridian against a Yamaha, level matched to within 0,2dB

 

[thewas]

You know, there may be something to that
I once did an ABX test between the output signal of a Meridian against a Yamaha, level matched to within 0,2dB

View attachment 161678

Would be interesting to see which measurement differences caused that, sometimes it is something trivial like a channel imbalance.

 

[TimVG]

Would be interesting to see which measurement differences caused that, sometimes it is something trivial like a channel imbalance.

Not channel but general frequency response difference, once you knew what to listen for you (certain transients) you could always pick it out.

 

[voodooless]

Not channel but general frequency response difference, once you knew what to listen for you (certain transients) you could always pick it out.

So which one of the two was broken ?

In any case, if frequency response is not the same, depending on how it's different, it might be tricky to really level match.. because: what level to match on?

 

[TimVG]

So which one of the two was broken ?

In any case, if frequency response is not the same, depending on how it's different, it might be tricky to really level match.. because: what level to match on?

1kHz sine tone. None of both were 'broken'
I just mean, often there are small differences - and if you listen very closely and can switch instantly, you can learn to pick them out

 

[sarumbear]

It's like seeing a poorly designed speaker with obvious comb filtering issues. But you're obviously emotionally invested in Geithaine speakers and no longer objective on the topic.

I love to see you prove how those comb filtering issues manifest itself in theory. I'm an acoustician and I can't but one learns every day. Do please show me.

I am not attached to those speakers, at all. All I am saying is there are no 3rd party measurements hence no one can say anything objective about them good or bad -- you included.

 

[voodooless]

I love to see you prove how those comb filtering issues manifest itself in theory. I'm an acoustician and I can't but one learns every day. Do please show me.

Extrapolating from that, do you also think round overs have no practical use?

Here is a simple wavefront sim of what happens. The open areas definitely have an effect, mostly off-axis. The effect is also frequency dependant, so comb filtering/diffraction seen here is at a different location with different frequencies.

 

[sarumbear]

The biggest downside of Geithain is that they're not a realistic purchase outside of a small handful of EU countries. Unless you fancy an extremely expensive import that you can't see or hear beforehand, with no local dealer support and shipping back to Germany at your expense in case of any issues. Assuming they even honor their warranties outside of the EU.

For such good speakers you'd think they would try selling them in more places, lol.

As a North American it is not easy to realise for you that those "handful," which is in fact 27 countries, have a larger GDP than US and vastly larger market. EU has 446 million inhabitants - the world’s third largest population after China and India. This is not including countries like Switzerland, Norway and Turkey where there is no import duty.

In fact why bother sell in US when you have a good market share in EU? LOL

 

[pozz]

ME Geithain RL 944K1: https://www.soundandrecording.de/eq...-nahfeldmonitor-mit-koaxialem-aufbau-im-test/

Plenty of tradeoffs to consider.

Edit: Vs. Genelec 8361A: https://www.soundandrecording.de/eq...-mit-voll-koaxialer-treiberanordnung-im-test/

 

[Pearljam5000]

ME Geithain RL 944K1: https://www.soundandrecording.de/eq...-nahfeldmonitor-mit-koaxialem-aufbau-im-test/

Plenty of tradeoffs to consider.

Edit: Vs. Genelec 8361A: https://www.soundandrecording.de/eq...-mit-voll-koaxialer-treiberanordnung-im-test/

Which one is better?

 

[pozz]

Which one is better?

It's not entirely a fair comparison, but with Genelecs you're getting smoother on and off axis response, especially vertically, and integration with GLM. With Geithains you're getting cardioid bass, which is a big deal.