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Which speakers are the Classical Music Pros using?

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tuga

tuga

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May I ask if your preference in terms of performers meant that they were recorded at a certain era? Nearly all modern (i.e produced after 2000) have "fine to excellent" sound, so I would agree with you there. However this was not the case for some labels in some eras. Deutsche Grammofon from the early digital age (80's) up till the late 90's had a notoriously muddy sound. Prior to that they sounded mostly decent but not outstanding. Decca from the 50's up to late 90's had variable quality, some were really good, and some not so great (good example is Solti's Wagner Ring cycle, supposedly a breakthrough in sound quality with the famous John Culshaw, but modern remasterings sound awful). The same variable quality can be heard with EMI of all eras. The only consistently good recordings (as in, I haven't heard a bad sounding disc from this label) come from Hyperion, ECM, Alia Vox, and surprisingly - modern Deutsche Grammofon.

I have a few thousand CD's because that's the only music I listen to. My focus is on collecting historical, famous, or unusual performances, which usually means digging through older recordings and sometimes on smaller labels. For example, Jascha Horenstein's recordings of Mahler are particularly rare, and you have to really hunt down small labels that I have never heard of, e.g. Unicorn-Kanchana, VoxBox Legends, and so on.

My point is, if your taste leads you to some performers (which would mean recordings were made at a certain era), you might form a biased view of classical recordings. I could on balance say that nearly all classical music from the earliest recordings in the 1920's to early-mid digital era are inferior to modern recordings, which would mean that the majority of recordings were substandard.

I would also like to know how you determine a recording to be "objectively fine to excellent". The only way I know of is to listen to it.
I listen mostly to stereo era recordings, from early days to nowadays.
There have been times when multi- and close-mic’ing have been (ab)used, also mics which exaggerated the top, even in the golden days of RCA and Mercury. But I was referring to compression and loudnesses and few CDs in my collection suffer from this.
And blaming it on B&W speakers is just biased and plain wrong (that has been my point).

There are tools that you can use to analyse music files (e.g. Audacity, AudioLeak, Spek or the TT Dynamic Range meter).
 
OP
tuga

tuga

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I can’t say I like the soundscape or perspective of a Reference Recordings recording (which is why I only own one) but it sounds great in a spectacular kind of way and there’s no hint of compression or excessive gain and clipping.

But I do understand the appeal of the hyper-realistic approach to orchestral music recording.
 

Snarfie

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Know in Holland a recording engineer who uses only a headphone for mastering through a HD600. Had the best results with that approach. One of his specialties are classical recordings in venues like Amsterdamse concert building which he does to.
 

Igor Kirkwood

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Know in Holland a recording engineer who uses only a headphone for mastering through a HD600. Had the best results with that approach. One of his specialties are classical recordings in venues like Amsterdamse concert building which he does to.
Snarfie, the most extraordinary places for the aural quality of the recordings generally do not have a control room. So only the headphones are used to control the sound recordings.

Examples of 4 rooms with extraordinary acoustics

The Sainte Chapelle in Paris

sc2.PNG

The Hall of Columns in Saint Petersburg

siant p.PNG


The Abbey of Fontfroide in France with its 6 seconds of marvelous reverberation.

fontfroide.PNG


In Germany Weingartein

isoir.PNG


Note: HD 600 of Sennheiser is good but I prefer STAX electrostatic headphones (or an other electrostatic headphone better)
 

Newman

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I have many hundreds of classical music CDs and the very large majority is objectively and subjectively fine to excellent. Since many were monitored, mixed and/or mastered in B&W 800-series speakers it seems that these speakers are more than adequate for this purpose.
…and you make that assessment while listening to those CDs on….what?
 

ahofer

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…and you make that assessment while listening to those CDs on….what?
Of course there is no chance the B&W speakers were EQ’d to flat is there…?

Or were pre-“showroom bump”, or were used in a heavily damped room from a specific listening point…..
 
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Igor Kirkwood

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B & W (801..) with an equalizer, it's a very good mixing tool.

However for a 2-channel sound recording like mine, you have to succeed on the spot, indeed the mixing is done "in live", if you miss, there is not much more to do, the sound recording is bad !
So to register in the beautiful acoustics of ancient historical monuments, it will be necessary to succeed with only one headphone.
3 exceptions:

-If you own a truck with a sound booth (like the big radios), you can use speakers, but wouldn't the B & W be too big?

- Exceptionally I was able after a setting with headphones, to check (for a recording in Paris!) the rendering with speakers before recording.

_The great Franco-Russian sound engineer Youri Kisselhoff had installed a real cabin with acoustic treatment in the sacristy of the Church of Lebanon in Paris (The Church of Our Lady of Lebanon is undoubtedly the one that has been most often used in the world as a "Recording Studio" by a large number of international labels and by a large number of sound engineers, because of its incredible acoustic clarity and its reverberation. Note that acoustic panels were olso used, in particular for piano sound recordings ).
Youri Kisselhoff recorded in the 60s with an artificial head with 4 microphones and 4 Klein Humel speakers which would later become Neumann 300), including 2 at the back.
Results: Dazzling in spacialistion !!!
 
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Newman

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Usually the sofa. Sometimes an armchair…
Haha, but you knew what I wanted to know, and your slippery wink of a reply actually makes you look evasive.

So…on what speakers were you adjudicating recordings made on B&W “dippies” to be “subjectively excellent”?
 
OP
tuga

tuga

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Haha, but you knew what I wanted to know, and your slippery wink of a reply actually makes you look evasive.

So…on what speakers were you adjudicating recordings made on B&W “dippies” to be “subjectively excellent”?

I’d love to see non-pros blind test a classical music recording monitored on B&Ws and getting at least 5/5.
Will the golden-eared please come forward?

The Nautilus/Diamonds/etc. are flat enough if not on axis and in a treated control room the directivity mismatch is hardly a problem.

Most labels featured in this topic use B&Ws.
 

Newman

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Another slippery wink?

Repeat …on what speakers were you adjudicating recordings made on B&W “dippies” to be “subjectively excellent”?
 

Inner Space

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I’d love to see non-pros blind test a classical music recording monitored on B&Ws and getting at least 5/5.
Will the golden-eared please come forward?
Yeah, that ain't going to happen. There's a lot of confusion on this site. ASR dogma seems to be (inter alia) that recording engineers are deaf morons, and that ATCs and B&Ws are terrible speakers ... yet the recommended recordings threads are full of titles I know for a fact were mixed and mastered on ATCs and B&Ws. Go figure.
 
OP
tuga

tuga

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Yeah, that ain't going to happen. There's a lot of confusion on this site. ASR dogma seems to be (inter alia) that recording engineers are deaf morons, and that ATCs and B&Ws are terrible speakers ... yet the recommended recordings threads are full of titles I know for a fact were mixed and mastered on ATCs and B&Ws. Go figure.
One of the indoctrinated will be around shortly and tell you that you need to read the holy book... Just you wait.
 

ahofer

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One of the indoctrinated will be around shortly and tell you that you need to read the holy book... Just you wait.
So what would be the result of mastering with newer B&Ws? The engineer takes a bit off the treble because of their toppiness? Or nothing because the engineer EQd the setup properly in studio.

This all seems like a non-argument, yet y’all are anticipating a fight. Weird.
 

JustJones

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I assume the rooms have acoustic treatment and the insert speaker brand
here -->(____) is EQ'ed. I don't really care what they use just the results EQ'ed in my room to my tastes. Here's one that mainly uses Legacy Speakers in the mixing mastering.

MIXING/MASTERING ROOM

Legacy Audio – Focus SE – Left and Right
Legacy Audio – Marquis HD – Center
Legacy Audio – Studio HD – LS, RS, LSS, RSS
Legacy Audio – Xtreme HD – Subwoofer
Adam – A3x – Height​


 
OP
tuga

tuga

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So what would be the result of mastering with newer B&Ws? The engineer takes a bit off the treble because of their toppiness? Or nothing because the engineer EQd the setup properly in studio.

This all seems like a non-argument, yet y’all are anticipating a fight. Weird.
Or maybe the engineer did not EQ the treble, nor the high in the recording. Who knows... Yet BIS recordings sound as good as it gets.
 

Newman

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One of the indoctrinated will be around shortly and tell you that you need to read the holy book... Just you wait.
Or skip “the indoctrinated” and “the holy book” (such an ironic, dare I say desperate, description of a science-based tome) and go straight to the scientist himself and what he has already said in this thread on “B&W 8**”, link.

Especially this quote: “I have noted that B&W 800 series speakers are reported as showing up in control rooms, implying that they have some special quality missing in "non-classical" monitors. Sorry, but this is simply human nature at work…
Wise studios would have an alternative, neutral loudspeaker, to audition as well, and many do. So, is the appearance of this speaker in recording studios a validation of its acoustical excellence and neutrality? No.


Now I can see why you are so proactively aggressive and defensive.
 
OP
tuga

tuga

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Or skip “the indoctrinated” and “the holy book” (such an ironic, dare I say desperate, description of a science-based tome) and go straight to the scientist himself and what he has already said in this thread on “B&W 8**”, link.

Especially this quote: “I have noted that B&W 800 series speakers are reported as showing up in control rooms, implying that they have some special quality missing in "non-classical" monitors. Sorry, but this is simply human nature at work…
Wise studios would have an alternative, neutral loudspeaker, to audition as well, and many do. So, is the appearance of this speaker in recording studios a validation of its acoustical excellence and neutrality? No.


Now I can see why you are so proactively aggressive and defensive.

The 801F will Spin better than most speakers, and will sound better too.

Thanks for making my point by citing your idol. "Blessed be the fruit".
 
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