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Which Speakers Are Know To Have The Best Spinorama Measurements?

Lorenzo74

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Spinorama or not Spinorama... is this the question?

pls ask to Floyd Toole, best speaker is the one with flat freq response on axis and coherent off axis.
why?
because "those ones" shows highest correlation with educated listeners judgment
so what?
because we do not listen in anechoic chamber or soccer fields but we listen inside our houses, between walls, floor and ceilings. so speakers that has lower interaction with the room better reproduce the recorder message (music,sound,...).
so what rooms do?
Room introduces reflections that create picks and nulls in the freq response... coloration.
what we can do?
minimize room effect, (by improving spinorama is only one piece of the mission).
who do this better?
speakers that "DIRECT" sound to listeners and avoid to spread it elsewhere. Cardiodid? yes! Pro sound knows this since played in educated market.
we need to avoid early reflections and eventually (since we can't) have early reflection similar to direct sound.

if above is correct (science is based on verified experiments and theories) i derive the following:

Best (regardless of spinorama) Speakers are:

B&O 90
Kii three +BXT
Kii three
Dutch & Dutch 8C
...
...
...
among not Cardioid
JBL M2
Genelec ...

pls. agree or disagree but pls. explain why, your opinion count and will help everyone.

thank you and stay healthy
my Best
Lorenzo

worth to see it
Bruno Putzeys on Kii Three
B&O 90
Dutch & dutch 8C
 

MZKM

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Spinorama or not Spinorama... is this the question?

pls ask to Floyd Toole, best speaker is the one with flat freq response on axis and coherent off axis.
why?
because "those ones" shows highest correlation with educated listeners judgment
so what?
because we do not listen in anechoic chamber or soccer fields but we listen inside our houses, between walls, floor and ceilings. so speakers that has lower interaction with the room better reproduce the recorder message (music,sound,...).
so what rooms do?
Room introduces reflections that create picks and nulls in the freq response... coloration.
what we can do?
minimize room effect, (by improving spinorama is only one piece of the mission).
who do this better?
speakers that "DIRECT" sound to listeners and avoid to spread it elsewhere. Cardiodid? yes! Pro sound knows this since played in educated market.
we need to avoid early reflections and eventually (since we can't) have early reflection similar to direct sound.

if above is correct (science is based on verified experiments and theories) i derive the following:

Best (regardless of spinorama) Speakers are:

B&O 90
Kii three +BXT
Kii three
Dutch & Dutch 8C
...
...
...
among not Cardioid
JBL M2
Genelec ...

pls. agree or disagree but pls. explain why, your opinion count and will help everyone.

thank you and stay healthy
my Best
Lorenzo

worth to see it
Bruno Putzeys on Kii Three
B&O 90
Dutch & dutch 8C
Do note some reviews of the D&D 8C aren’t stupendous, chalking it up to the less side-wall reflections reducing the overall size of the soundstage.
 

ReaderZ

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Spinorama or not Spinorama... is this the question?

pls ask to Floyd Toole, best speaker is the one with flat freq response on axis and coherent off axis.
why?
because "those ones" shows highest correlation with educated listeners judgment
so what?
because we do not listen in anechoic chamber or soccer fields but we listen inside our houses, between walls, floor and ceilings. so speakers that has lower interaction with the room better reproduce the recorder message (music,sound,...).
so what rooms do?
Room introduces reflections that create picks and nulls in the freq response... coloration.
what we can do?
minimize room effect, (by improving spinorama is only one piece of the mission).
who do this better?
speakers that "DIRECT" sound to listeners and avoid to spread it elsewhere. Cardiodid? yes! Pro sound knows this since played in educated market.
we need to avoid early reflections and eventually (since we can't) have early reflection similar to direct sound.

if above is correct (science is based on verified experiments and theories) i derive the following:

Best (regardless of spinorama) Speakers are:

B&O 90
Kii three +BXT
Kii three
Dutch & Dutch 8C
...
...
...
among not Cardioid
JBL M2
Genelec ...

pls. agree or disagree but pls. explain why, your opinion count and will help everyone.

thank you and stay healthy
my Best
Lorenzo

worth to see it
Bruno Putzeys on Kii Three
B&O 90
Dutch & dutch 8C


I think you are way overselling these new dsp speakers. Geithain has been making cardioid design for many many years before these dps ones.
 

beefkabob

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Do note some reviews of the D&D 8C aren’t stupendous, chalking it up to the less side-wall reflections reducing the overall size of the soundstage.
Put them farther apart?
 

richard12511

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Spinorama or not Spinorama... is this the question?

pls ask to Floyd Toole, best speaker is the one with flat freq response on axis and coherent off axis.
why?
because "those ones" shows highest correlation with educated listeners judgment
so what?
because we do not listen in anechoic chamber or soccer fields but we listen inside our houses, between walls, floor and ceilings. so speakers that has lower interaction with the room better reproduce the recorder message (music,sound,...).
so what rooms do?
Room introduces reflections that create picks and nulls in the freq response... coloration.
what we can do?
minimize room effect, (by improving spinorama is only one piece of the mission).
who do this better?
speakers that "DIRECT" sound to listeners and avoid to spread it elsewhere. Cardiodid? yes! Pro sound knows this since played in educated market.
we need to avoid early reflections and eventually (since we can't) have early reflection similar to direct sound.

if above is correct (science is based on verified experiments and theories) i derive the following:

Best (regardless of spinorama) Speakers are:

B&O 90
Kii three +BXT
Kii three
Dutch & Dutch 8C
...
...
...
among not Cardioid
JBL M2
Genelec ...

pls. agree or disagree but pls. explain why, your opinion count and will help everyone.

thank you and stay healthy
my Best
Lorenzo

worth to see it
Bruno Putzeys on Kii Three
B&O 90
Dutch & dutch 8C

Is that what the science says? Genuine question. If other parameters are under control, I've seen Floyd suggest that dispersion characteristics might be a matter of individual taste. I've also seen him suggest that it might also depend on the number of speakers in play. And yet, the Salon 2 beat the M2 because it spread its energy out more and interacted more with the room. He says in his book that sidewall reflections actually enhance clarity if they are similar to the direct sound, due to the way our brain interprets them. I genuinely don't know what to believe. Some of these things seem somewhat contradictory, but maybe not; I really don't know. My own experience in my room is that wider dispersion drastically reduces clarity. If watching a movie, for instance, I have to turn up the center channel to hear dialog, and music is more spacious sounding, but less clear. This could be due to my room having no first reflections, so all reflections are interpreted as echo, which smears the sound. However, this is also contradicted by science that says rooms don't change loudspeaker preference; we hear through the room. o_O

The M2 did beat the Salon 2 every time according to 3 people, which seems to support Dr. Toole's assertion about dispersion preferences being different among individuals.
 
Last edited:

jonfitch

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Is that what the science says? Genuine question. If other parameters are under control, I've seen Floyd suggest that dispersion characteristics might be a matter of individual taste. I've also seen him suggest that it might also depend on the number of speakers in play. And yet, the Salon 2 beat the M2 because it spread its energy out more and interacted more with the room. He says in his book that sidewall reflections actually enhance clarity if they are similar to the direct sound, due to the way our brain interprets them. I genuinely don't know what to believe. Some of these things seem somewhat contradictory, but maybe not; I really don't know. My own experience in my room is that wider dispersion drastically reduces clarity. If watching a movie, for instance, I have to turn up the center channel to hear dialog, and music is more spacious sounding, but less clear. This could be due to my room having no first reflections, so all reflections are interpreted as echo, which smears the sound. However, this is also contradicted by science that says rooms don't change loudspeaker preference; we hear through the room. o_O

The M2 did beat the Salon 2 every time according to 3 people, which seems to support Dr. Toole's assertion about dispersion preferences being different among individuals.

I'm always surprised with how much Toole and Revel seem to have never done any research in coaxial drivers given how well they measure with their Spinorama methodology, and they keep citing some old 1980s 2-way KEF coaxial speakers they measured having high IMD distortion when run full-range being the reason they don't invest into coaxials.

If you look at what's commonly cited as the best passive speakers you can buy by many respected speaker designers in the industry--the TAD Reference One--it's a giant coaxial speaker. Genelec's highest end designs which are praised in the pro industry are coaxials. And KEF are considered giant killers in the home audio world, and they use coaxials, and all three companies have speakers that measure just as well or better than even Revel's Ultima2 series, even using Toole's preferred methodology of the spinorama. It really baffles me the disconnect going on here, although I have my theories.
 
Last edited:

Sir Sanders Zingmore

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Room introduces reflections that create picks and nulls in the freq response... coloration.
what we can do?
minimize room effect, (by improving spinorama is only one piece of the mission).
who do this better?
speakers that "DIRECT" sound to listeners and avoid to spread it elsewhere.

If we take the idea of "directing" rather than "spreading" sound we end up with (some) panel speakers. Roger Sanders argues that his electrostats are designed to "beam". Yes you end up with a very small sweet spot but you drastically reduce the room effects (and therefore the importance of off-axis response).
 

maverickronin

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If we take the idea of "directing" rather than "spreading" sound we end up with (some) panel speakers. Roger Sanders argues that his electrostats are designed to "beam". Yes you end up with a very small sweet spot but you drastically reduce the room effects (and therefore the importance of off-axis response).

The Sanders electrostats were the best thing I heard at AXPONA last year. Their imaging was amazing. It blew away the Salon 2's and Kii 3's in that respect. I wasn't as impressed by the ML 'stats.

Not the best methodology, but so far I haven't been able to find too much other research confirming or denying what's best for sharp imaging.
 

Purité Audio

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A customer has a pair of Sanders, not my favourite.
Keith
 

pozz

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I'm always surprised with how much Toole and Revel seem to have never done any research in coaxial drivers given how well they measure with their Spinorama methodology, and they keep citing some old 1980s 2-way KEF coaxial speakers they measured having high IMD distortion when run full-range being the reason they don't invest into coaxials.

If you look at what's commonly cited as the best passive speakers you can buy by many respected speaker designers in the industry--the TAD Reference One--it's a giant coaxial speaker. Genelec's highest end designs which are praised in the pro industry are coaxials. And KEF are considered giant killers in the home audio world, and they use coaxials, and all three companies have speakers that measure just as well or better than even Revel's Ultima2 series, even using Toole's preferred methodology of the spinorama. It really baffles me the disconnect going on here, although I have my theories.
I think you're putting things somewhat out of proportion. I'd like to see more coaxial designs and more attention to waveguides as well, but when cost, SPL and their tradeoffs come into play the design field opens wide.
  • As far as I know there are no published measurements of the TAD Reference One. The smaller TAD Reference CR1 and TAD Evolution One, while being good speakers, show the typical coaxial issues past 10kHz. I don't know about "commonly cited" either, since citation implies study rather than talk by the community.
  • Genelec's 8361A is the largest coaxial and the design shows less even directivity than the smaller versions and, again, issues past 10kHz. It is too small for a mains speaker, where something like the 1238A would be used. For pros, the use is for smaller studios, bedrooms or more expensive multi-channel setups.
  • KEF makes good speakers. They are a large, well-known brand which saw a lot of success with the speakers based on the Uni-Q driver. They are competitive, sure, but nothing like giant-killers.

1588176158551.png
 

richard12511

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I'm always surprised with how much Toole and Revel seem to have never done any research in coaxial drivers given how well they measure with their Spinorama methodology, and they keep citing some old 1980s 2-way KEF coaxial speakers they measured having high IMD distortion when run full-range being the reason they don't invest into coaxials.

If you look at what's commonly cited as the best passive speakers you can buy by many respected speaker designers in the industry--the TAD Reference One--it's a giant coaxial speaker. Genelec's highest end designs which are praised in the pro industry are coaxials. And KEF are considered giant killers in the home audio world, and they use coaxials, and all three companies have speakers that measure just as well or better than even Revel's Ultima2 series, even using Toole's preferred methodology of the spinorama. It really baffles me the disconnect going on here, although I have my theories.

That's a good point. I'm also surprised at how little they seem to embrace active loudspeakers, given their obvious advantages.
 

tuga

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I think you're putting things somewhat out of proportion. I'd like to see more coaxial designs and more attention to waveguides as well, but when cost, SPL and their tradeoffs come into play the design field opens wide.
  • As far as I know there are no published measurements of the TAD Reference One. The smaller TAD Reference CR1 and TAD Evolution One, while being good speakers, show the typical coaxial issues past 10kHz. I don't know about "commonly cited" either, since citation implies study rather than talk by the community.
  • Genelec's 8361A is the largest coaxial and the design shows less even directivity than the smaller versions and, again, issues past 10kHz. It is too small for a mains speaker, where something like the 1238A would be used. For pros, the use is for smaller studios, bedrooms or more expensive multi-channel setups.
  • KEF makes good speakers. They are a large, well-known brand which saw a lot of success with the speakers based on the Uni-Q driver. They are competitive, sure, but nothing like giant-killers.

View attachment 60991

If I'm not mistaken the TAD R1 uses the same coax as the CR1:

y4O6RcS.png

www.avmagazine.it


And the Pioneer S-1EX uses the same coax as the Evo1:

307P1Xfig5.jpg

https://www.stereophile.com/content/pioneer-s-1ex-loudspeaker-measurements


Gradient also uses a coax MT (Seas):

810Helfig3.jpg

https://www.stereophile.com/content/gradient-helsinki-15-loudspeaker-measurements

gr95fig4.jpg

https://www.stereophile.com/content/gradient-revolution-loudspeaker-measurements
 

pierre

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I think you're putting things somewhat out of proportion. I'd like to see more coaxial designs and more attention to waveguides as well, but when cost, SPL and their tradeoffs come into play the design field opens wide.
  • As far as I know there are no published measurements of the TAD Reference One. The smaller TAD Reference CR1 and TAD Evolution One, while being good speakers, show the typical coaxial issues past 10kHz. I don't know about "commonly cited" either, since citation implies study rather than talk by the community.
  • Genelec's 8361A is the largest coaxial and the design shows less even directivity than the smaller versions and, again, issues past 10kHz. It is too small for a mains speaker, where something like the 1238A would be used. For pros, the use is for smaller studios, bedrooms or more expensive multi-channel setups.
  • KEF makes good speakers. They are a large, well-known brand which saw a lot of success with the speakers based on the Uni-Q driver. They are competitive, sure, but nothing like giant-killers.

View attachment 60991
For the 8361a, I will be able to comment soon. Mines are landing tomorrow (or are supposed to). I really really hoped they can work as a main with the w371.
 

Sancus

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For the 8361a, I will be able to comment soon. Mines are landing tomorrow (or are supposed to). I really really hoped they can work as a main with the w371.

With the W371 going up to 500hz, which is well above the bass crossover, it's hard to see what the point of the 8361A in this scenario is over the 8351B? They have the same tweeter, midrange, and amplifier power in those areas. The only difference is the bass driver which you're not really using if you have the W371, as far as I can tell...
 

pierre

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That's a good point. I'm also surprised at how little they seem to embrace active loudspeakers, given their obvious advantages.

the pro speakers from Harman are actives. That’s the customers of jbl that are unlikely to buy actives.
 

pierre

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With the W371 going up to 500hz, which is well above the bass crossover, it's hard to see what the point of the 8361A in this scenario is over the 8351B? They have the same tweeter, midrange, and amplifier power in those areas. The only difference is the bass driver which you're not really using if you have the W371, as far as I can tell...

price is not that different : in my case I am likely to have 8341 on top of the w371 in 1 room and 8361 in another room.
 
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