Which DAC measurements do you like to see next?

[HarmonicTHD]

Hello everyone

Here is a photo of my 'Rod Rain Audio DA10' DAC with its new OPAMPS ->

View attachment 257820

(other changes are also made)

I still haven't taken any measurements on this device because I don't have the instruments to do so.

I have tried many OPAMPS and these are what I find the most 'musical', that is my own opinion: this notion is purely subjective since there is no device capable of measuring the quality of musicality...

Here are some detailed photos of these OPAMPS and a brief technical sheet ->

View attachment 257821

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Here is the link where you can get his OPAMPS ->

https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/1005004162458293.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.298.41a85e5bptepBB&gatewayAdapt=glo2fra

Regards.

Never seen a DAC with clunky Mundorfs measuring state of the art.

 

[ICIETDIYEUR]

Hello Harmonic THD.

Can you elaborate on your intervention, please ?

Do you know the circuit diagram of this DAC and where are these MUNDORF ('clunky' -> this is only your responsibility...) capacitors positioned ?

I am convinced that your answer will interest a maximum of readers of the site who will certainly have asked themselves the same question or at least had the same reflection as you.

Regards.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Hello Harmonic THD.

Can you elaborate on your intervention, please ?

Do you know the circuit diagram of this DAC and where are these MUNDORF ('clunky' -> this is only your responsibility...) capacitors positioned ?

I am convinced that your answer will interest a maximum of readers of the site who will certainly have asked themselves the same question or at least had the same reflection as you.

Regards.

Seeing very expensive caps (Mundorfs) in a discrete DAC design often is a sign for bad engineering and the engineer made up for it by using “Audiophile” Uber components. Secondly in order to accommodate all these discrete and large components the signal path gets longer and can pick up noise etc. Do I know if this is the case here. No and I might be totally wrong.

I am just assuming and neither did I look into the details of the PCB and in the end only facts / measurements will tell.
(or some of the electronic experts can tell).

 

[Doodski]

Seeing very expensive caps (Mundorfs) in a discrete DAC design often is a sign for bad engineering and the engineer made up for it by using “Audiophile” Uber components. Secondly in order to accommodate all these discrete and large components the signal path gets longer and can pick up noise etc. Do I know if this is the case here. No and I might be totally wrong.

I am just assuming and neither did I look into the details of the PCB and in the end only facts / measurements will tell.
(or some of the electronic experts can tell).

If there is any improvement using those oil and aluminum wound caps it is that they will maybe last longer than a standard audio grade electrolytic cap?

 

[HarmonicTHD]

If there is any improvement using those oil and aluminum wound caps it is that they will maybe last longer than a standard audio grade electrolytic cap?

What do you think? At ca 18 bucks a piece.

 

[ICIETDIYEUR]

@ HarmonicTHD: I don't think you can call it a sign of bad engineering when you don't know the circuit, can you?
Capturing the noise with such capacitors would be a shame and if there was a risk that it comes from the outside, the solid aluminum chassis is doubled by a 'FARADAY cage' type insulator.
We do not actually have measurements to affirm it in a sure way.
This device is nevertheless very musical and we cannot measure it either since to date no device allows it.
NOTE: these capacitors are used in connection for the front output provided for the headphones from the outputs of the OPA (double) of the differential summing stage (top OPA, the farthest from the 6.35mm socket)

@ Doodsky: The improvement in SQ with this type of capacitor is a well-known fact and measured on some audio forums compared to traditional capacitors.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

@ HarmonicTHD: I don't think you can call it a sign of bad engineering when you don't know the circuit, can you?
Capturing the noise with such capacitors would be a shame and if there was a risk that it comes from the outside, the solid aluminum chassis is doubled by a 'FARADAY cage' type insulator.
We do not actually have measurements to affirm it in a sure way.
This device is nevertheless very musical and we cannot measure it either since to date no device allows it.
NOTE: these capacitors are used in connection for the front output provided for the headphones from the outputs of the OPA (double) of the differential summing stage (top OPA, the farthest from the 6.35mm socket)

@ Doodsky: The improvement in SQ with this type of capacitor is a well-known fact and measured on some audio forums compared to traditional capacitors.

Really? Musical? Sounding better?

Facts please.

It reeks of snake oil not capacitor oil and Mundorf does not provide a single shred of hard evidence just anecdotes on their web page.

 

[Doodski]

What do you think? At ca 18 bucks a piece.

I was more thinking about the old oil and paper wound with PCBs caps that have lasted so many years/decades and still operate. So I equated aluminum and oil as in a similar longevity.

 

[ICIETDIYEUR]

To start, my post was about OPAMPS, not capacitors.

It seems that everything that escapes you leads you to use the term 'snake oil', it is quite reductive at least for a good mental vision...

How to prove facts concerning the musicality of a device since it depends on the appreciation of each one, I wonder ?
When trying to 'measure' it to be factual, we will wait for an engineer to invent a device that measures musicality.

In the meantime, we can content ourselves with electrical measurements, etc..., but that is not music there are only little 'particles'.

Take hard rock for example which uses a maximum of distortion with the guitars, some songs are excellent, we have the right not to like but that does not mean that it is bad.

 

[WireWoundResistor]

@ICIETDIYEUR did you get lost or something?

 

[Koeitje]

Take hard rock for example which uses a maximum of distortion with the guitars, some songs are excellent, we have the right not to like but that does not mean that it is bad.

This is such an insane strawman argument that I don't even know what to say.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

This is such an insane strawman argument that I don't even know what to say.

One gets the impression there is a vested interest behind it eg by either profiting financially from the sales of this DAC or OpAmps „Upgrade“ without being transparent about it (manufacturers or dealer label)

 

[ICIETDIYEUR]

@ HarmonicTHD,

The people who speak here would therefore all have some interest from the moment they speak of a device ? (including you therefore).

I do not know the direct contact with the manufacturer of the devices or materials presented, I just indicate where I got them having found the price interesting at the place where I bought them.

Don't have bad thoughts, we're here to socialize and have a good time

 

[HarmonicTHD]

@ HarmonicTHD,

The people who speak here would therefore all have some interest from the moment they speak of a device ? (including you therefore).

I do not know the direct contact with the manufacturer of the devices or materials presented, I just indicate where I got them having found the price interesting at the place where I bought them.

Don't have bad thoughts, we're here to socialize and have a good time

Thanks for clarifying.

How much is this DAC? Would you be willing to sent one to Amir and would you accept the outcome even if the outcome would show poor performance?

 

[ICIETDIYEUR]

Here is where I bought it ->

https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/1005003742821263.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.415.64155e5bsR8amb&gatewayAdapt=glo2fra

If you find a contact to provide it to you directly, I encourage you to do so

This does not include the upgrades (in my opinion) that I have carried out.

First of all, a few details: I am from France.

It would be easier for me to have it measured by someone here (France) properly equipped to perform measurements with amir's protocols.

Of course, I agree and I have no problem posting the measurements of my DAC here, even if they were bad.

For my part, I do not qualify a DAC by its electrical performance but by its musicality and the emotion it provides, which does not call into question the classifications made here.

Just to clarify: current distortion (and other) rates have long been beyond the limits of human audibility...

... Unless you are BATMAN or rather DAREDEVIL

If a device is 'bad' (musically) it is surely a fault or a design defect.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Here is where I bought it ->

https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/1005003742821263.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.415.64155e5bsR8amb&gatewayAdapt=glo2fra

If you find a contact to provide it to you directly, I encourage you to do so

This does not include the upgrades (in my opinion) that I have carried out.

First of all, a few details: I am from France.

It would be easier for me to have it measured by someone here (France) properly equipped to perform measurements with amir's protocols.

Of course, I agree and I have no problem posting the measurements of my DAC here, even if they were bad.

For my part, I do not qualify a DAC by its electrical performance but by its musicality and the emotion it provides, which does not call into question the classifications made here.

Just to clarify: current distortion (and other) rates have long been beyond the limits of human audibility...

... Unless you are BATMAN or rather DAREDEVIL

If a device is 'bad' (musically) it is surely a fault or a design defect.

Thanks for the info. As it comes from China it wouldn’t matter if it would be shipped to Europe or US for measuring.

What about we each donate ca 60 USD to Amir so he can buy and measure it (provided he agrees)? If his measurements and verdict come back as „not recommended“ you pay the full price (and you can keep it) and me vice versa.

Or alternatively you ship your unit to @VintageFlanker he is in France afik and provided of course he agrees to measure it.

Either way, I am confident I will win. ;-)

 

[ICIETDIYEUR]

Amir certainly has means that we do not have...

... and I'm not a gamer, I can't afford it because if that were the case, I would surely have bought a top-of-the-range DAC which necessarily costs much more without asking myself any questions or modify it although nothing is perfect.

In addition, I already have this DAC so I really don't see the point of having a second one.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Amir certainly has means that we do not have...

... and I'm not a gamer, I can't afford it because if that were the case, I would surely have bought a top-of-the-range DAC which necessarily costs much more without asking myself any questions or modify it although nothing is perfect.

In addition, I already have this DAC so I really don't see the point of having a second one.

Ok and what about sending yours to vintageflanker (in France). You would get it back and it only costs you shipping.

 

[ICIETDIYEUR]

Why not, but at the moment i'm quite busy: i will see a little later knowing that I still want to make some changes including the main clock...

I'm thinking about assembling my next amplifier based on Sylph Audio's 'D200-MK II' PCB and I've already gathered almost all the building blocks for this one.

For those who don't know, here is the web page of the direct supplier of this PCB ->

Blog

This is the improved version of the D200 model that amir has already measured and which had obtained very good results (especially for a 'first launch')
although this PCB is not from the usual large manufacturers such as S.M.S.L or TOPPING for example which proves that others than they are capable of doing very good things with the addition of much less prohibitive purchase costs and the pleasure of DIY.

D200 ->

In this 'ranking' for exemple, the ACCUPHASE E-270 costs more than 5000€ and the S.M.S.L VMV A2 costs almost 1000€:

it has a nice tip whose only interest in my opinion is to scratch the support on which it will be placed but it's more 'audiophile'...

They would have done better to include XLR inputs

In conclusion, I think that the latest version (optimized D200) of the D200 MK II PCB is therefore very promising

 

[zeropoint]

How about the SMSL C100? An intriguing mini-DAC featuring a single AK4493S; an XU316 no less; their in-house developed CK-03 clock management; a display; an IR remote; and last and least, the unmentionable dreaded MQA, yet selling - albeit briefly - for as little as £79.20, though more usually at the still respectable £99?