Will I see any benefit using an external DAC?

[flightops]

I use a circa year 2000 CD multidisc player. It's a Kenwood CD425M, 200 cd holder. I'm happy wih it, It does what I want it to do.

Specs:

System ......................................... Compact disc digital audio system
Laser .................................................................... Semiconductor laser
[D/A Convertors]
D/A Conversion .............................................................................. Dual 1 Bit
Oversampling ............................................................... 8 fs (352.8 kHz)
[Audio]
Frequency response ........................................ 4 Hz ~ 20 kHz, ± 0.5 dB
Signal to noise ratio ............................................... More than 105 dB
Dynamic range .......................................................... More than 95 dB
Total harmonic distortion + noise
............................................................ Less than 0.005% (at 1 kHz)
Channel separation .................................. More than 95 dB (at 1 kHz)
Wow & flutter ...................................................... Unmeasurable Limit
Output level/impedance
Fixed ............................................................................... 2.0 V/1 kΩ
Digital output
Optical ...................... –15 dBm ~ –21 dBm (Wave length 660 nm)

Says "dual 1 bit" convertors, meaning two separate DAC chips I'm guessing.

It sounds fine for my use, feeding RCA's into a rebuilt Sansui 8080DB.

But as the old saying goes: the best you know is the best you've heard.

Would I see any benefit to feeding the digital optical out to a more modern external DAC? Sound quality wise that is?

I'm really behind the ball on the whole external DAC thing. I've always just plugged in cd players and let 'er rip. But the rest of my sound system is wonderful sounding, I'm just wondering if a 300-500 DAC woudl be worth installing in he signal path.

Cheers to anyone with any helpful suggestions.

 

[Joe Smith]

Probably unlikely you would hear a difference. But you could buy from Crutchfield or Amazon with a return policy and test for yourself. I use both native cd players and dvd drives with optical out to a dac, and I can’t really hear a difference. A good basic dac with good specs like the JDS Labs Atom+ would be an inexpensive way to evaluate… And, if you’re in a testing frame of mind, getting a basic single cd transport to compare to your multi would be another aspect to consider.

 

[DVDdoug]

The only time I've heard a difference or defect from a "DAC" it was a soundcard that made noise when the hard drive was accessed.

 

[DanielT]

Even if you don't hear any difference, you get remote volume control with, for example, this good $150 DAC:

Topping E30 II DAC Review

This is review and detailed measurements of the Topping E30 II DAC. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $149. The single "SEL" button powers on the unit (touch sensitive) and selects input. Some combination of power cycling and that button lets you change menu settings but bets to...

audiosciencereview.com

If that feature appeals to you?

 

[Timcognito]

Amir performed and wrote a review of the Bluesound Node I owned and basically said the the DAC was mediocre from a company the produces NAD and other well loved brands. In another review he praised the Topping E30 DAC $130. I bought the E30 and was convinced it was better but upon a retest I think I was kidding myself and went back and forth to a point I forgot which I was using. There is no profound difference for sure. Further, my old school 2001 Link DAC III with upgrades was lying dormant in my audio cadenza so I hooked it up and guess what no difference except no display showing format, filters, volume control or remote. Instead for less than $200 one can get a number of WiiM products that have very good DACs and allow steaming, internet radio, multi-room and best of all a GUI that one add to phone/tablet to really control everything, especially if that CD player has a digital out.
In my case with over 1000 CDs the real liberation was putting them all a NAS, getting rid of the jewel cases, having one dashboard and rediscovering forgotten nuggets of musical joy that I already owned.

 

[flightops]

Thank you. That's all quite helpful.

I've got a single player, a 5 carousel player and a 50 CD player as well as the Kenwood 200 cd player. The first three are all Sonys and are currently in storage. The Kenwood is the only one currently in use as I only have 126 CD's that I may want to hear at any one time (and some of those are the wife's). The Kenwood holds those at the ready, with room to spare.

I didn't think I'd heard any real difference between the player, except that they could hold different numbers of CDs.

The Kenwood has title and track display, so searching is pretty easy. It will also select by genre or I can program a playlist if I want. It's crazy featured for a year 2000 model:

Kenwood CD425M (ALT DPFJ6030)​

Home CD Player - 200-Disc Jukebox - 2000​

RS-232C works with "NetNamer" software.
Play Exchange (can change other discs while one is playing)
Keyboard Remote [RC-KB2]
2nd Remote [RC-P0714]
Jog Dial
"SL16" System Controllable with Title Xfer
RS-232C
Timer Compatible
32-Track Programming
32-Track Permanent File (player will remember selections)
34-Category Group File (8 User)
CD Text/ Title Entry
TOSLINK Optical Digital Output
Dual 1-bit D/A Conv.
S/N Ratio: 105 dB
Energy Star
Gray Chassis
440 x 163 x 479mm WHD
7.0 kg.

Even has a keyboard to go with the crazy remote:

I keep a printed excel spreadsheet with it so I can see what I may want at a glance and go directly to it.

I'd prefer to keep it where it is in the system. It's just too versatile to let go of.

I like having the Jewel cases in a rack. I keep them in order as hey are in the player and I enjoy being able to go through the booklet if I want when playing an album.

Waiting for it to switch CDs isn't an issue for me either. I listen to albums start to finish and then go to the next I want to hear. It's an old vinyl habit (which is another medium I still use).

"Digitizing/ripping" the library isn't of much use to me other than loading it on my phone so I can listen to it when mowing the lawn, washing the car, gardening, etc.

I was just wondering if I could get a little "bump up" in SQ with an external DAC processing the digital signal, but it sounds like the juice might not be worth the squeeze.....

 

[DanielT]

There are a lot of fun things you can do and try. I just had to buy a new phone because I spilled coffee on my old one so it stopped working. An entry-level model, a Samsung A16. Enough for my needs. In any case, my DAC, SMSL DO100 PRO, has LADC Codec capabilities and the Samsung phone can send out LDAC signals. With Spotify, the limitation in sound quality is hardly in the LDAC Bluetooth codec, I think. So LDAC wireless, that good enough for the summer cottage. Together with an app with PEQ to get a sensible bass FR. For example this one:

Precise Volume 2.0 + Equalizer - APK Download for Android

Download Precise Volume 2.0 + Equalizer 2.0.0-beta-16e APK for Android right now. No extra costs. User ratings for Precise Volume 2.0 + Equalizer: 3.93 ★

precise-volume.en.aptoide.com

(I haven't investigated its limitations, functions yet, just as an example)

Plus some other app to do FR sweeps. It's good enough for summer cottage listening to get a decent FR.

Plus other things like; internet radio, podcasts, Youtube and so on that I can listen to via Bluetooth. PLUS I can switch and use my Blu-ray, Sony BDP-S570, with a digital cable out from it to the same SMSL Dac.

 

[flightops]

That's all more than I need. I listen to music on vintage gear and when I listen, it's for the purpose of listening so it's done in a dedicated room:

Nothing like that "critical lstening" guys talk about. I just play what I enjoy and that's it. My hearing damage from 30 years in the airforce around screaming jet engines would make "critical listening" pointless anyways. What I find nice most people tend to find "bright" or even "harsh", as I tend to bump up the higher freqs (where my hearing drops off).

With my age, I span all the times when all those mediums were popular, so I still have lots of it and the gear needed to listen to it. Mostly because I tend to buy decent stuff first go around and then hold on to it/keep it in good repair.

About the only thing I don't have is RTR. never got into that (for whatever reason) and it's too expensive (for too little return) these days to even want to give it a try.

I even have some 8 track stuff and a couple players put away in storage right now. Although the 8 track stuff is more about practicing repairing that era electronics (it's a hobby for me). Picked this old one up at the electronic recyclers:

Was a mess. Missing components, boards, etc. I had to dig to even find the case/cover in the bin. Looked like someone had been using it for a parts mule of some sort. But it was 8 track and quadraphonic, which I have never worked on before, so I thought it might be fun to rebuild it. Helped me develop my capstan "refresh" sandblasting method and even at a meager 7.5WPC, it sounded pretty decent once put back in working order, although I'm still chasing some weird left channel drop out on programs 3 and 4 when playing 8 track. Meh, fun to mess with during the times I don't have any other projects on the go.

I use an iphone, so all the android stuff won't work for me. I'm kind of hemmed in to using apple as android is far less featured when connected to my truck.

Never had much interest in podcasts, but that's just me. Same with internet radio, spotify, etc.

I guess I'm just too much of a "dinosaur" that way. I listen to it from time to time, but I have a preference for physical media.

I was mostly just wondering if I could improve on the CD sound using the digital out from my model year 2000 cd player. I thought maybe the intervening 25-ish years might have made for some better tech.

But it seems there's not a big jump up available using an external DAC to handle the conversion based on the replies given. I'm not planing to sit and strain my ears for a hint of change here or there. IF it had been something like going from an elliptical stylus to a Micro-linear stylus change in sound (which is still just an incremental improvement to my ears), I might have given one a try.....

 

[djb]

Cool room flightops.

To answer the original post. I did notice a difference with a SMSL SU1 and Schmitt Modi + when added to a DVD player and Wiim mini. Especially on the low end. The dacs added a lot of 'weight' to the sound and toned down the brightness.

 

[1066]

I wonder if you might enjoy adding streaming with a WiiM pro plus?

Music is controlled from your phone via the app. There is eq on the app. You'd need to subscribe to a streaming service. Then there’s a huge world of music available to you.

If your cd player has optical out, it looks like there is an optical input on the back of the WiiM in which case you could see if any improvement over your cd player dac?

I think WiiM outputs max 2v for connection to your amplifier.

There is a review/measurements of the WiiM pro plus on this website.

 

[Roland68]

Thank you. That's all quite helpful.

I've got a single player, a 5 carousel player and a 50 CD player as well as the Kenwood 200 cd player. The first three are all Sonys and are currently in storage. The Kenwood is the only one currently in use as I only have 126 CD's that I may want to hear at any one time (and some of those are the wife's). The Kenwood holds those at the ready, with room to spare.

I didn't think I'd heard any real difference between the player, except that they could hold different numbers of CDs.

The Kenwood has title and track display, so searching is pretty easy. It will also select by genre or I can program a playlist if I want. It's crazy featured for a year 2000 model:

Kenwood CD425M (ALT DPFJ6030)​

Home CD Player - 200-Disc Jukebox - 2000​

RS-232C works with "NetNamer" software.
Play Exchange (can change other discs while one is playing)
Keyboard Remote [RC-KB2]
2nd Remote [RC-P0714]
Jog Dial
"SL16" System Controllable with Title Xfer
RS-232C
Timer Compatible
32-Track Programming
32-Track Permanent File (player will remember selections)
34-Category Group File (8 User)
CD Text/ Title Entry
TOSLINK Optical Digital Output
Dual 1-bit D/A Conv.
S/N Ratio: 105 dB
Energy Star
Gray Chassis
440 x 163 x 479mm WHD
7.0 kg.

Even has a keyboard to go with the crazy remote:

View attachment 458199

View attachment 458200

I keep a printed excel spreadsheet with it so I can see what I may want at a glance and go directly to it.

I'd prefer to keep it where it is in the system. It's just too versatile to let go of.

I like having the Jewel cases in a rack. I keep them in order as hey are in the player and I enjoy being able to go through the booklet if I want when playing an album.

Waiting for it to switch CDs isn't an issue for me either. I listen to albums start to finish and then go to the next I want to hear. It's an old vinyl habit (which is another medium I still use).

"Digitizing/ripping" the library isn't of much use to me other than loading it on my phone so I can listen to it when mowing the lawn, washing the car, gardening, etc.

I was just wondering if I could get a little "bump up" in SQ with an external DAC processing the digital signal, but it sounds like the juice might not be worth the squeeze.....

The financial outlay wouldn't be very high. With an SU-1 or C100, depending on your requirements (remote control, display, Bluetooth, etc.), it would cost you €79-119. These DACs are sonically indistinguishable from devices many times more expensive and are only slightly larger than a pack of cigarettes. You'll also need a simple USB power supply/charger.

 

[flightops]

The financial outlay wouldn't be very high. With an SU-1 or C100, depending on your requirements (remote control, display, Bluetooth, etc.), it would cost you €79-119. These DACs are sonically indistinguishable from devices many times more expensive and are only slightly larger than a pack of cigarettes. You'll also need a simple USB power supply/charger.

I don't need anything like bluetooth, displays, remotes, etc. Just sound processing to send to the Sansui 8080DB.

I'd be happy for it just to be a little box that sits there with a power on and off button and otherwise just does it's job unnoticed.

That is, of course, assuming there would be any noticeable increase in sound quality.

 

[flightops]

Cool room flightops.

To answer the original post. I did notice a difference with a SMSL SU1 and Schmitt Modi + when added to a DVD player and Wiim mini. Especially on the low end. The dacs added a lot of 'weight' to the sound and toned down the brightness.

Thanks. Been working on it since about 1974 when I bought my first rush album at 9yo....

I'll look over those models and see what's what.

Brightness isn't a problem for me really. Hearing damge from 30 year in the air force and I've go a fairly pronounced drop off starting at 2KHz. What's bright for some people doesn't both me at all. My system probably sounds "bright" to others because I tend to "boost" everything from 2KHz and up.

 

[flightops]

I wonder if you might enjoy adding streaming with a WiiM pro plus?

Music is controlled from your phone via the app. There is eq on the app. You'd need to subscribe to a streaming service. Then there’s a huge world of music available to you.

If your cd player has optical out, it looks like there is an optical input on the back of the WiiM in which case you could see if any improvement over your cd player dac?

I think WiiM outputs max 2v for connection to your amplifier.

There is a review/measurements of the WiiM pro plus on this website.

Nah,not interested in streaming. Not really. I'm at an age now that the music I own is the music I want to listen too. Not old and grumpy (yet), I just want to hear what I want to hear and paying for streaming isn't going to get me anything that I don't already have in physical media. Well, maybe a couple newer songs from a couple bands, but not enough to justify paying for a streaming service.

The Kenwood is TOSLink, so optical out.

 

[Rit]

Nah,not interested in streaming. Not really. I'm at an age now that the music I own is the music I want to listen too. Not old and grumpy (yet), I just want to hear what I want to hear and paying for streaming isn't going to get me anything that I don't already have in physical media. Well, maybe a couple newer songs from a couple bands, but not enough to justify paying for a streaming service.

The Kenwood is TOSLink, so optical out.

Flightops, i was very content to listen to my collection with an occasional purchase of used cd’s. Thought I would try streaming to see what all fuse was about, I’m hooked. Streaming allows you to discover your favorite artist in detail. I’m currently listening to Loggins and Messina, (Sit tin’in) an album I do not have in my collection and it’s fabulous!

 

[Roland68]

I don't need anything like bluetooth, displays, remotes, etc. Just sound processing to send to the Sansui 8080DB.

I'd be happy for it just to be a little box that sits there with a power on and off button and otherwise just does it's job unnoticed.

That is, of course, assuming there would be any noticeable increase in sound quality.

That's how you describe the SU-1.

Only you can find out whether that sounds better to you.

 

[DanielT]

Nah,not interested in streaming. Not really. I'm at an age now that the music I own is the music I want to listen too. Not old and grumpy (yet), I just want to hear what I want to hear and paying for streaming isn't going to get me anything that I don't already have in physical media. Well, maybe a couple newer songs from a couple bands, but not enough to justify paying for a streaming service.

The Kenwood is TOSLink, so optical out.

If you only listen to the CDs/vinyls you have, streaming is of course pretty pointless. But I can still recommend internet radio, even though you wrote:
Never had much interest in podcasts, but that's just me. Same with internet radio, spotify, etc.

I find it convenient and musically rewarding.

This one for example. Good sound quality, free without advertising:

Audiophile Quality Stream | SomehowJazz

somehowjazz.com

But there are many others, often free with advertising, pay channels and so on. One of the most popular is Radio Paradise:




There are more people than me who like radio:

 

[flightops]

Just not interested in audio streaming services. I've tried it. It's OK. But not really interested in it.

It was like sat radio. I found it interesting for a while, tired of it and then started to ask myself why I was paying for it every month. Axed it shortly after that.

I may discover something on the internet that I like, but then I go find the physical media for it.

Although finding physical media is getting harder and harder.....still, streaming just isn't for me.

For some reason I find it just feels somehow....."disconnected"....compared to physical media.

Internet radio is hit and miss for me. I actually used to listen to a local OTA FM station that also has an online service. But when they became infested with vile political ads during the last election (NOT USA election), I had to cut them loose too. Was too bad as it was one of the sources of local news and events for me. But the political climate is just so toxic everywhere these days, I just can't stand nay of it anymore. I get that OTA radio needs to take whatever advertising dollars they can get these days, but that was just beyond the pale for me. The ads were literally vile. Same reason I cancelled cable service last year and went to a couple streaming services (Crave, Disney+, prime, etc). At least with streaming, I have control of the movies and such that I am watching.

But other than steaming video, streaming is just not for me.

Meh, maybe I'm just getting old.......

At any rate, lets please not turn this into a steaming audio discussion.

I'm just looking for "straight up" DAC information for a possible increase in SQ. So far, the SU-1 looks like it might be interesting (and affordable) enough to try it......

 

[flightops]

Well, SMSL SU-1 was available from Amazon for 105 bucks (CDN, incl taxes).

Free returns, so if I don't think there's any point to it after a listen, I can send it back and no money out of pocket.

Worth giving it a try at least since I can return it with no costs to me. At least I'll know if an external DAC is worth pursuing further, although the reviews on this one seem pretty good overall.

I'm kind of skeptical it will make a diff, but willing to try it.

Supposed to arrive friday.

 

[flightops]

Well now. Amazon had one SMSL C100 left.

On a larf, I ordered it. Free returns again so I can try the bare bones SU1 and the C100 that has a few more features and return the one I don't need.

From what i understand, same basic unit as the SU1 with a few more user features and a small display.

Should be interesting to compare.

Either way, one of them will be returned. It's just a matter of which one. Or maybe both if I don't perceive a benefit with either one....