AudioSceptic
Major Contributor
Impressive. Any mods over the years, especially the major ones of sub-chassis, power supply, and arm?My LP12 is a very early one, from 1973, and still sounds lovely.
Impressive. Any mods over the years, especially the major ones of sub-chassis, power supply, and arm?My LP12 is a very early one, from 1973, and still sounds lovely.
No. I mean it'll take more work to get things 'right' than with a simple elliptical or conical stylus.What do you mean ? That by spending more you will get better? And within what limits?
None at all. I've bought some upgrade bits for it but decided instead to leave it as original - it's still got the SME arm and Shure cartridge that it originally came with. I've been toying with the idea of getting another LP12 to play around with upgrading, but have several other turntables in use in other systems anyway (Rega, Project & Thorens ones).Impressive. Any mods over the years, especially the major ones of sub-chassis, power supply, and arm?
That would be interesting. It's rare for people to actually compare mod vs vanilla after they've already bought the mods.None at all. I've bought some upgrade bits for it but decided instead to leave it as original - it's still got the SME arm and Shure cartridge that it originally came with. I've been toying with the idea of getting another LP12 to play around with upgrading, but have several other turntables in use in other systems anyway (Rega, Project & Thorens ones).
Riding high in the groove also helps by avoiding the dirt that inevitably collects at the bottom.You are not reading this correctly.
Hyper elliptical styli help with distortion by riding higher in the groove than older, conical styli. Thus not contacting the worn part of the groove.
Anti-skating helps tracking at lower vertical force. A desirable feature, but not directly related to distortion.
The eleven Alan Parsons albums have had modern digital transfers (the analogues from largely unplayed tapes held by Alan Wolfson's estate, rather than the well played Arista/Charisma production samples, which I gather are the same 'generation' as the record company held ones). The uMatics? of Vulture Culture had to be carefully restored (the Abbey Road guys had to seriously persuade Arista to let them have the original digital tapes, despite the latter claiming they were un-playable and it took three people three days to rescue the data from them). As well as modern digital mastering for download/CD, there's a set of the eleven issued on vinyl too.Just bought original from back then:
Also bought this vinyl records ( all from back then)
Alan Parsons Project: I Robot
Joe Croce: Songbook
Led Zeppelin: CODA
Led Zeppelin: 3 without the wheel spinning cover
And this CD
King Crimson: In The Court Of The Crimson King - An Observation By King Crimson (so e special 40 year release)
Payed 10€ per thing
Did I get screwed? I‘m I enjoying?
I noticed when I buy a record I usually listen to the thing and chill. Same with CD. When I use my streamer I‘m either working or doing something else. When use physical media, I listen to music.
Can I just have your SL95B to add to my Garrard collection please?Guys (and all three of you ladies), have you not been reading Stereophile and TAS? If you don't spend at least $30,000 on your vinyl setup, IT IS WORTHLESS AND YOU ARE NOT AN AUDIOPHILE.
And if you CAN'T spend $30,000 on your vinyl setup, then you are just JEALOUS of those who can.
Sorry, I don't make the rules. I'm just reporting what people in the audio press have been telling me for the last 30 years. And they would know, right?
The LP12 swims like an effin' fish as far as pitch is concerned, although the average Gyrodec is worse. This with a brand new belt and VERY careful setup, which at one time I claimed to be an expert at and had decks brought to me from all over to sort out back in the day (I've lost much of it now I discovered as springs need matching as well as grommets). Compared to master tape (I had some good copies) and CD, the endearing 'swing' in the LP12s sound was often very slight dynamic wow (in the eighties, severe bass colouration added a plump 'ripeness' too which has been largely removed in the ridiculous price current model). Make sure the main bearing isn't wearing, as even Cirkus examples do sadly.Yes. I can hear differences, so they must be measureable (not that I'm all that interested!). For one thing the LP12 has much better speed accuracy and speed stability (they only thing I've actually measured on both of them), despite being much, much older. They've got different arms and cartridges though - so it'd take work to determine where the differences come from.
Two sonic opposites, I agree.Have owned both a Grace 707 and an SME III, can attest to that.
You're asking about territory where angels fear to treadImpressive. Any mods over the years, especially the major ones of sub-chassis, power supply, and arm?
My experience is slightly different - my LP12 is rock solid for speed and all of my the Project decks are also very good. It's some of the older Rega decks I've encountered speed stability issues with. I'm making progress with the latest of those (an upgraded belt helped a lot, and changing the bearing and oil helped a bit more) but it's still a little too high and I can hear the wow & flutter on some music. It's at least listenable now though.The LP12 swims like an effin' fish as far as pitch is concerned, although the average Gyrodec is worse. This with a brand new belt and VERY careful setup, which at one time I claimed to be an expert at and had decks brought to me from all over to sort out back in the day (I've lost much of it now I discovered as springs need matching as well as grommets). Compared to master tape (I had some good copies) and CD, the endearing 'swing' in the LP12s sound was often very slight dynamic wow (in the eighties, severe bass colouration added a plump 'ripeness' too which has been largely removed in the ridiculous price current model). Make sure the main bearing isn't wearing, as even Cirkus examples do sadly.
Almost all Rega decks back then, run too fast, and not sure if current ones without the external supplies with pitch tuning have corrected it frankly. Fancy belts help improve the wow figures, but can affect speed adversely too. I almost had a fight with someone on PFM forum some years back, but I have a very accurate 300Hz strobe which I *know* is correct and every Rega I ever sold was unboxed, cartridge fitted, QC checked and tracks played on the whole thing before the customer was allowed to take it away and sadly, this is hardly done today I'm told. Regas, proJects and similar solid-plinth models MUST be carefully sited and played I feel, with lid off!
I could go on for bloody hours here but dare not. Apologies - I'll stick my well frayed dealer hat back in its box and try to double lock it away
My LP12 could definitely be improved (at considerable cost probably) but I realised that I really like the way it sounds at the moment, so don't see a need for upgrades. It's also not far off a museum piece (from the serial number I think it might have been one of the first couple of hundred LP12's made) so would be a shame to change that.You're asking about territory where angels fear to tread
The 'mechanical' updates really did improve the old fruitbox, but no point in tonearm or supply updates until the blasted 'structural' improvements were made! I can say this as fact (to me) 'cos I did so many dems and set up so many...
I've got an 86SB if you're interested.Can I just have your SL95B to add to my Garrard collection please?
Inflation-adjusted prices for many consumer electronic items have declined a lot since the 1970s, with the luxury-products market (including high-end hifi) being an exception. Simply put, we've gotten better and faster (CAD/CAM, automated assembly) at doing more with less (less energy usage, less pollution, less packaging)In the late 70's a good tt cost around $250 which is over $1000 today. It's about the same nowadays, spend a grand and be happy. With digital you can use a $100-300 dac but with analog you simply can't if you want quality. Proper cart/needle alone costs at least $200. The basic good level being AT ML (microline stylus) series.
Reasonable for me would be about 1k new or $500 used. After that there will be some improvement but with clearly diminishing return.
Lovely! Can't get a new Linn made with that African teak any more. My three LP12s were a bit newer.My LP12 could definitely be improved (at considerable cost probably) but I realised that I really like the way it sounds at the moment, so don't see a need for upgrades.
The inflation-adjusted price drops are substantial for mass market hi-fi, even with objective performance improvements. But far less so for niche markets like turntables set-ups, especially when dealing with this kind of vintage technology. And if you're looking for something like pure analog from microphones to studio tape recorders through to mixing, mastering and production the cost is likely to be higher even when inflation-adjusted.Inflation-adjusted prices for many consumer electronic items have declined a lot since the 1970s, with the luxury-products market (including high-end hifi) being an exception. Simply put, we've gotten better and faster at doing more with less.
Still gotta pay a premium for a nude-mounted stylus though: I guess the associated manufacturing processes haven't changed so much.
True. But in the 70's tt was the norm so while processes are better the volumes are not. I'd say the lower end is much better and usable nowadays, applies very much to speakers too. But when we go from ok to actually good the price will climb fast because most people will not buy good.Inflation-adjusted prices for many consumer electronic items have declined a lot since the 1970s, with the luxury-products market (including high-end hifi) being an exception. Simply put, we've gotten better and faster (CAD/CAM, automated assembly) at doing more with less (less energy usage, less pollution, less packaging)
Still gotta pay a premium for a nude-mounted stylus though: I guess the associated manufacturing processes haven't changed so much.
Were you able to visually determine when the bearing needed replacing? Mine had tiny divots worn into the surface of the thrust pad.The LP12 swims like an effin' fish as far as pitch is concerned, although the average Gyrodec is worse. This with a brand new belt and VERY careful setup, which at one time I claimed to be an expert at and had decks brought to me from all over to sort out back in the day (I've lost much of it now I discovered as springs need matching as well as grommets). Compared to master tape (I had some good copies) and CD, the endearing 'swing' in the LP12s sound was often very slight dynamic wow (in the eighties, severe bass colouration added a plump 'ripeness' too which has been largely removed in the ridiculous price current model). Make sure the main bearing isn't wearing, as even Cirkus examples do sadly.
Almost all Rega decks back then, run too fast, and not sure if current ones without the external supplies with pitch tuning have corrected it frankly. Fancy belts help improve the wow figures, but can affect speed adversely too. I almost had a fight with someone on PFM forum some years back, but I have a very accurate 300Hz strobe which I *know* is correct and every Rega I ever sold was unboxed, cartridge fitted, QC checked and tracks played on the whole thing before the customer was allowed to take it away and sadly, this is hardly done today I'm told. Regas, proJects and similar solid-plinth models MUST be carefully sited and played I feel, with lid off!
I could go on for bloody hours here but dare not. Apologies - I'll stick my well frayed dealer hat back in its box and try to double lock it away