What might a "sensible" vinyl playback setup look like?

[AudioSceptic]

My LP12 is a very early one, from 1973, and still sounds lovely.

Impressive. Any mods over the years, especially the major ones of sub-chassis, power supply, and arm?

 

[Verig]

In the late 70's a good tt cost around $250 which is over $1000 today. It's about the same nowadays, spend a grand and be happy. With digital you can use a $100-300 dac but with analog you simply can't if you want quality. Proper cart/needle alone costs at least $200. The basic good level being AT ML (microline stylus) series.
Reasonable for me would be about 1k new or $500 used. After that there will be some improvement but with clearly diminishing return.

 

[mhardy6647]

What do you mean ? That by spending more you will get better? And within what limits?

No. I mean it'll take more work to get things 'right' than with a simple elliptical or conical stylus.
... and cost more money.
Plenty of opportunity to obsess over every detail if one wishes.
I don't wish so to do.
Full disclosure, I use the venerable and (at best) divisive Denon DL-103 (plain vanilla, unsuffixed model) LOMC cartridge. These have been in continuous production since 1961. Designed for broadcast use, they're easy to live with and very forgiving. They also sound -- to me -- very good. They're not inexpensive, and they're very low compliance. Life is compromise.

I mention all of this because the DL-103 famously employs a "0.5 mil" conical stylus -- smaller diameter than the typical consumer conical stylus. Empirically, this seems to provide good frequency response, good (not great) tracking, easy setup, and good tolerance of beat-up records.





The perfect is the enemy of the good.

 

[Verig]

DL-103 is a bit oddball. It's nice. Just careful when talking about conical tips as the needles in cheapest new tt's are definitely not comparable to Denon. Should be evident in the price when 103 costs as much as the whole set but still.
Then there is low compliance and the need of MC riaa. Not a newcomer set for sure unless one knows someone to set it up.

 

[niblue]

Impressive. Any mods over the years, especially the major ones of sub-chassis, power supply, and arm?

None at all. I've bought some upgrade bits for it but decided instead to leave it as original - it's still got the SME arm and Shure cartridge that it originally came with. I've been toying with the idea of getting another LP12 to play around with upgrading, but have several other turntables in use in other systems anyway (Rega, Project & Thorens ones).

 

[Verig]

None at all. I've bought some upgrade bits for it but decided instead to leave it as original - it's still got the SME arm and Shure cartridge that it originally came with. I've been toying with the idea of getting another LP12 to play around with upgrading, but have several other turntables in use in other systems anyway (Rega, Project & Thorens ones).

That would be interesting. It's rare for people to actually compare mod vs vanilla after they've already bought the mods.

 

[AudioSceptic]

You are not reading this correctly.

Hyper elliptical styli help with distortion by riding higher in the groove than older, conical styli. Thus not contacting the worn part of the groove.

Anti-skating helps tracking at lower vertical force. A desirable feature, but not directly related to distortion.

Riding high in the groove also helps by avoiding the dirt that inevitably collects at the bottom.

 

[DSJR]

Just bought original from back then:

Also bought this vinyl records ( all from back then)
Alan Parsons Project: I Robot
Joe Croce: Songbook
Led Zeppelin: CODA
Led Zeppelin: 3 without the wheel spinning cover

And this CD
King Crimson: In The Court Of The Crimson King - An Observation By King Crimson (so e special 40 year release)

Payed 10€ per thing
Did I get screwed? I‘m I enjoying?
I noticed when I buy a record I usually listen to the thing and chill. Same with CD. When I use my streamer I‘m either working or doing something else. When use physical media, I listen to music.

The eleven Alan Parsons albums have had modern digital transfers (the analogues from largely unplayed tapes held by Alan Wolfson's estate, rather than the well played Arista/Charisma production samples, which I gather are the same 'generation' as the record company held ones). The uMatics? of Vulture Culture had to be carefully restored (the Abbey Road guys had to seriously persuade Arista to let them have the original digital tapes, despite the latter claiming they were un-playable and it took three people three days to rescue the data from them). As well as modern digital mastering for download/CD, there's a set of the eleven issued on vinyl too.

Coda sounds excellent on CD as well as vinyl (I recall as my LP has long gone). As for the King Crimson. According to Mr Fripp himself, the current CD issue is the very best you'll ever hear that record as they hunted through and found the main production masters rather than copies of these which it seems were used before! It's all on RF's blog going back however long it was when it was done (late noughties?).

P.S. My early CD copy of I Robot has a nasty drop-out on the swirling introduction to the first track, not there in the instrumentals album and definitely not there on this remastered issue. Can't remember if I still have the original vinyl though and can't get to my LP's to check.

 

[DSJR]

Guys (and all three of you ladies), have you not been reading Stereophile and TAS? If you don't spend at least $30,000 on your vinyl setup, IT IS WORTHLESS AND YOU ARE NOT AN AUDIOPHILE.

And if you CAN'T spend $30,000 on your vinyl setup, then you are just JEALOUS of those who can.

Sorry, I don't make the rules. I'm just reporting what people in the audio press have been telling me for the last 30 years. And they would know, right?

Can I just have your SL95B to add to my Garrard collection please?

 

[DSJR]

Yes. I can hear differences, so they must be measureable (not that I'm all that interested!). For one thing the LP12 has much better speed accuracy and speed stability (they only thing I've actually measured on both of them), despite being much, much older. They've got different arms and cartridges though - so it'd take work to determine where the differences come from.

The LP12 swims like an effin' fish as far as pitch is concerned, although the average Gyrodec is worse. This with a brand new belt and VERY careful setup, which at one time I claimed to be an expert at and had decks brought to me from all over to sort out back in the day (I've lost much of it now I discovered as springs need matching as well as grommets). Compared to master tape (I had some good copies) and CD, the endearing 'swing' in the LP12s sound was often very slight dynamic wow (in the eighties, severe bass colouration added a plump 'ripeness' too which has been largely removed in the ridiculous price current model). Make sure the main bearing isn't wearing, as even Cirkus examples do sadly.

Almost all Rega decks back then, run too fast, and not sure if current ones without the external supplies with pitch tuning have corrected it frankly. Fancy belts help improve the wow figures, but can affect speed adversely too. I almost had a fight with someone on PFM forum some years back, but I have a very accurate 300Hz strobe which I *know* is correct and every Rega I ever sold was unboxed, cartridge fitted, QC checked and tracks played on the whole thing before the customer was allowed to take it away and sadly, this is hardly done today I'm told. Regas, proJects and similar solid-plinth models MUST be carefully sited and played I feel, with lid off!

I could go on for bloody hours here but dare not. Apologies - I'll stick my well frayed dealer hat back in its box and try to double lock it away

 

[DSJR]

Have owned both a Grace 707 and an SME III, can attest to that.

Two sonic opposites, I agree.

 

[DSJR]

Impressive. Any mods over the years, especially the major ones of sub-chassis, power supply, and arm?

You're asking about territory where angels fear to tread

The 'mechanical' updates really did improve the old fruitbox, but no point in tonearm or supply updates until the blasted 'structural' improvements were made! I can say this as fact (to me) 'cos I did so many dems and set up so many...

 

[niblue]

The LP12 swims like an effin' fish as far as pitch is concerned, although the average Gyrodec is worse. This with a brand new belt and VERY careful setup, which at one time I claimed to be an expert at and had decks brought to me from all over to sort out back in the day (I've lost much of it now I discovered as springs need matching as well as grommets). Compared to master tape (I had some good copies) and CD, the endearing 'swing' in the LP12s sound was often very slight dynamic wow (in the eighties, severe bass colouration added a plump 'ripeness' too which has been largely removed in the ridiculous price current model). Make sure the main bearing isn't wearing, as even Cirkus examples do sadly.

Almost all Rega decks back then, run too fast, and not sure if current ones without the external supplies with pitch tuning have corrected it frankly. Fancy belts help improve the wow figures, but can affect speed adversely too. I almost had a fight with someone on PFM forum some years back, but I have a very accurate 300Hz strobe which I *know* is correct and every Rega I ever sold was unboxed, cartridge fitted, QC checked and tracks played on the whole thing before the customer was allowed to take it away and sadly, this is hardly done today I'm told. Regas, proJects and similar solid-plinth models MUST be carefully sited and played I feel, with lid off!

I could go on for bloody hours here but dare not. Apologies - I'll stick my well frayed dealer hat back in its box and try to double lock it away

My experience is slightly different - my LP12 is rock solid for speed and all of my the Project decks are also very good. It's some of the older Rega decks I've encountered speed stability issues with. I'm making progress with the latest of those (an upgraded belt helped a lot, and changing the bearing and oil helped a bit more) but it's still a little too high and I can hear the wow & flutter on some music. It's at least listenable now though.

 

[niblue]

You're asking about territory where angels fear to tread

The 'mechanical' updates really did improve the old fruitbox, but no point in tonearm or supply updates until the blasted 'structural' improvements were made! I can say this as fact (to me) 'cos I did so many dems and set up so many...

My LP12 could definitely be improved (at considerable cost probably) but I realised that I really like the way it sounds at the moment, so don't see a need for upgrades. It's also not far off a museum piece (from the serial number I think it might have been one of the first couple of hundred LP12's made) so would be a shame to change that.

This is it:

 

[AudioSceptic]

Can I just have your SL95B to add to my Garrard collection please?

I've got an 86SB if you're interested.

 

[JeffS7444]

In the late 70's a good tt cost around $250 which is over $1000 today. It's about the same nowadays, spend a grand and be happy. With digital you can use a $100-300 dac but with analog you simply can't if you want quality. Proper cart/needle alone costs at least $200. The basic good level being AT ML (microline stylus) series.
Reasonable for me would be about 1k new or $500 used. After that there will be some improvement but with clearly diminishing return.

Inflation-adjusted prices for many consumer electronic items have declined a lot since the 1970s, with the luxury-products market (including high-end hifi) being an exception. Simply put, we've gotten better and faster (CAD/CAM, automated assembly) at doing more with less (less energy usage, less pollution, less packaging)

Still gotta pay a premium for a nude-mounted stylus though: I guess the associated manufacturing processes haven't changed so much.

 

[JeffS7444]

My LP12 could definitely be improved (at considerable cost probably) but I realised that I really like the way it sounds at the moment, so don't see a need for upgrades.

Lovely! Can't get a new Linn made with that African teak any more. My three LP12s were a bit newer.

 

[CT Man]

Inflation-adjusted prices for many consumer electronic items have declined a lot since the 1970s, with the luxury-products market (including high-end hifi) being an exception. Simply put, we've gotten better and faster at doing more with less.

Still gotta pay a premium for a nude-mounted stylus though: I guess the associated manufacturing processes haven't changed so much.

The inflation-adjusted price drops are substantial for mass market hi-fi, even with objective performance improvements. But far less so for niche markets like turntables set-ups, especially when dealing with this kind of vintage technology. And if you're looking for something like pure analog from microphones to studio tape recorders through to mixing, mastering and production the cost is likely to be higher even when inflation-adjusted.

 

[Verig]

Inflation-adjusted prices for many consumer electronic items have declined a lot since the 1970s, with the luxury-products market (including high-end hifi) being an exception. Simply put, we've gotten better and faster (CAD/CAM, automated assembly) at doing more with less (less energy usage, less pollution, less packaging)

Still gotta pay a premium for a nude-mounted stylus though: I guess the associated manufacturing processes haven't changed so much.

True. But in the 70's tt was the norm so while processes are better the volumes are not. I'd say the lower end is much better and usable nowadays, applies very much to speakers too. But when we go from ok to actually good the price will climb fast because most people will not buy good.

Styli are still made in the same way I think so no helping that.

 

[JeffS7444]

The LP12 swims like an effin' fish as far as pitch is concerned, although the average Gyrodec is worse. This with a brand new belt and VERY careful setup, which at one time I claimed to be an expert at and had decks brought to me from all over to sort out back in the day (I've lost much of it now I discovered as springs need matching as well as grommets). Compared to master tape (I had some good copies) and CD, the endearing 'swing' in the LP12s sound was often very slight dynamic wow (in the eighties, severe bass colouration added a plump 'ripeness' too which has been largely removed in the ridiculous price current model). Make sure the main bearing isn't wearing, as even Cirkus examples do sadly.

Almost all Rega decks back then, run too fast, and not sure if current ones without the external supplies with pitch tuning have corrected it frankly. Fancy belts help improve the wow figures, but can affect speed adversely too. I almost had a fight with someone on PFM forum some years back, but I have a very accurate 300Hz strobe which I *know* is correct and every Rega I ever sold was unboxed, cartridge fitted, QC checked and tracks played on the whole thing before the customer was allowed to take it away and sadly, this is hardly done today I'm told. Regas, proJects and similar solid-plinth models MUST be carefully sited and played I feel, with lid off!

I could go on for bloody hours here but dare not. Apologies - I'll stick my well frayed dealer hat back in its box and try to double lock it away

Were you able to visually determine when the bearing needed replacing? Mine had tiny divots worn into the surface of the thrust pad.

Pity that I never thought to measure the effectiveness of the Linn's suspension at isolating the stylus from subsonic energy picked up from the environment, as well as the dust cover! Ditto the effectiveness of Technics SL1200 Mk II's die-cast + composite construction.

But I have performed some measurements on AT-LP120USB, and can confirm that leaving the dust cover on during playback acts as a microphone. And the stock rubber feet allow quite a bit of subsonic energy (typically <30 Hz) through.