What might a "sensible" vinyl playback setup look like?

[JeffS7444]

I'm submitting this as a thought-experiment more than anything else, because measuring/ABX-ing countless combinations of turntable, tonearm and cartridge seems like an impossible task. But I'm curious:

How inexpensive can a vinyl-playback system be, while still delivering a faithful reproduction of the recording? As a challenge, let's consider only products which can be purchased new today, or DIY'd. And because we're believers in science, let's allow DSP and other signal processing.

And should we relax our definition of "faithful reproduction" a little bit, to imply what's audible, and not necessarily the very best measurable performance?

Some of the specific products that I've pondered include:

Numark PT01 USB portable turntable, with stock sapphire stylus replaced with diamond as per VWestlife videos.
Audio Technica LP60: the variants with BT or headphone output seem like they'd be especially handy
U-Turn Orbit Plus: manual, no suspension
Rekkord Audio P400: automatic, with suspension

 

[DVDdoug]

How inexpensive can a vinyl-playback system be,

I feel like the sweet spot is $200-$500 USD. If you go too cheap sound quality will suffer. Some super-cheap turntables have ceramic cartridges which are "low fidelity". And with some plastic turntables you can get rumble. It you spend too much you're still stuck with the sound of analog vinyl.

Do you have a phono preamp? Some of those turntables have one built-in but I'm not sure about all of them. Traditionally it was built-into the receiver but modern receivers don't always have them (my AVR does not have a phono input). A preamp will run you about $100, or like everything else you can spend more, or less.

And should we relax our definition of "faithful reproduction" a little bit, to imply what's audible, and not necessarily the very best measurable performance?

The records themselves are the biggest limitation. There is always some nose when the stylus is in the groove and the record is turning. And depending on the condition of the record you can get anything from slight crackle, to an occasional click or pop, to frequent nasty clicks & pops. The noise will be audible between tracks and during fade-ins, fade-outs, and quiet passages, if you are listening "loud" or with headphones.

The frequency response on records varies too, especially on older records. (I haven't actually heard any modern records but I assume they are more consistent.)

The frequency response on phono cartridges varies but that (along with the record's frequency response) can be tweaked with EQ. Some cartridges can track better than others so on some hard-to-track records you might get less distortion with a better cartridge. I don't think you gain anything if you spend several hundred or thousands of dollars on a cartridge.

If I was buying a turntable I'd probably get the AT LP120 USB (whatever the current version is). It comes ready-to-play with a cartridge and built-in preamp. It's direct drive so there are no belts or drive wheels to wear out, and it's got USB for digitizing. But I don't think it has any automatic functions.

...I've got an old Technics direct drive and it's never given me any trouble or needed any "maintenance". But to be fair, it hasn't been used much for the last few decades... I only use it to occasionally digitize a record that's not available digitally. It's semi-automatic and it lifts the arm at the end of the record.

 

[kemmler3D]

I'll give you an anecdote which is worth as much as the paper it's printed on.

I have a U-Turn Orbit and a Schiit Mani 2. I feed that into my LS60s via a WiiM Pro.

I think it sounds great, as good as I've ever heard vinyl sound. My wife doesn't like it, she thinks it sounds "digital" in that it's too clean, the frequency response is too good, etc. No lo-fi feel from it.

Take that as you will.

 

[Jas0_0]

If I was buying a turntable I'd probably get the AT LP120 USB (whatever the current version is). It comes ready-to-play with a cartridge and built-in preamp. It's direct drive so there are no belts or drive wheels to wear out, and it's got USB for digitizing.

Intrigued by this.

Currently I use an old single-speed Linn LP12, with an AT MC cart (both bought before I discovered ASR). This feeds an RME Fireface 400 for AD conversion, then I do software RIAA and room correction EQ before DA conversion.

If I replaced the Linn, MC cart and RME with the LP120 USB and fed that direct to my Mac for the same DSP treatment, objectively speaking, would I lose any SQ?

Thanks,

James

 

[gwing]

Intrigued by this.

Currently I use an old single-speed Linn LP12, with an AT MC cart (both bought before I discovered ASR). This feeds an RME Fireface 400 for AD conversion, then I do software RIAA and room correction EQ before DA conversion.

If I replaced the Linn, MC cart and RME with the LP120 USB and fed that direct to my Mac for the same DSP treatment, objectively speaking, would I lose any SQ?

Thanks,

James

I wasn't really a fan of the Linn and eventually replaced mine with a Gyrodec but, still, I think the Linn is likely to be a more satisfying platform than the LP120. Regrettably replay quality from records does I think come down to engineering quality and that is expensive, much depends on the quality of the arm fitted as well as the deck of course. One day I'll get my analogue system out of storage and back into action ...

 

[Balle Clorin]

Intrigued by this.

Currently I use an old single-speed Linn LP12, with an AT MC cart (both bought before I discovered ASR). This feeds an RME Fireface 400 for AD conversion, then I do software RIAA and room correction EQ before DA conversion.

If I replaced the Linn, MC cart and RME with the LP120 USB and fed that direct to my Mac for the same DSP treatment, objectively speaking, would I lose any SQ?

Thanks,

James

Yes

 

[deweydm]

Used Technics quartz locked, direct drive T4P turntables can still be found for a hundred bucks or less. Based on a quick check of Facebook Marketplace in a large US metropolitan area. And an Art DJ Pre II phono pre amp for less than $70 new.

 

[Koeitje]

Somewhere in the 300-500 euro range I'd say. I had a simple turntable (forgot the brand) with a Rega RB-251 arm and a decent Denon cart and that was about the top end of that (I used the phono stage on my Marantz PM-16). Sounded fine. Its never going to sound as good as a CD, but it has its charm.

 

[Joe Smith]

I have many vintage turntables but my "simple" upstairs system is the one that gets the most daily vinyl use, an Audio Technica AT-120xUSB table ($230) with a AT 95-VM95ML stylus ($150), used with either a restored Kenwood KA-3500 integrated amp, or into a U-Turn Pluto preamp ($110) to one of my Fosi or Aiyima amps when I switch those in.

 

[NoMoFoNo]

The new generation-2 U-Turn turntables all use a re-engineered magnesium one-piece tonearm, offer speed control and other changes that make them fantastic (IMO) options at their price point. If I were starting out from scratch, I'd get one and never look back.

 

[MattHooper]

Don’t ask me….

 

[JeffS7444]

Gotta admit that I was hoping that someone would go lower-end, even much lower!

Me: Had Linn LP12/Valhalla/Ittok for many years, received setup training from USA distributer, too. Eventually replaced with Technics SL1200 Mk II, ended up selling the Technics to a buddy when I was convinced that I was never touching vinyl again. But the urge struck again, and I got a A-T LP120USB, which I still own.

Wish I had I had made identical test recordings from each, and would love to measure the Linn suspension's effectiveness at minimizing pickup of subsonic energy.

Sometimes I've thought to change things up again to something smaller, or at least lighter in weight, maybe even Bluetooth-connected. Typical turntable is kind of a space hog, tethered to the rest of the system via a short cable, and that annoys me some. I thought I might prefer something less fussy, and when not in use, I might like to stash it away on a high shelf.

 

[JeffS7444]

"VWestlife" just posted some great record-wear tests! TLDW summary: Keep those records clean.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Sensible?

 

[DarkKoala]

Thats Easy....
Amp or streamer with integrated phono stage and something from rega or mofi.
1: Rega p3 + Some Nude needle thing... Ortofon Bronze for example
2: Mofi StudioDeck simple edition, without the "fancy" feet + the UltraTrcker

In general I would aim not to spend more than 2K to call it sensible. You can always buy used.

You should always keep in mind is recommended to spend 10x the cost of the electronics in cables
Thats all.

 

[JeremyFife]

I'd take it down a notch.
Advantage of vinyl is nostalgia/feel and occasionally better mastering. Disadvantages are all about limitations of the media (reduced dynamic range and rolled off frequencies at both ends). You'll never overcome the limitations, so don't stress about it.

Rega P2 as benchmark TT (or good equivalent; pro-ject, audio technica, fluence or 2nd hand Technics I'd you feel brave).
Upper limit of £300.
Use whatever cartridge it comes with.
Use the built-in phono stage if there is one

Schiit mani2 phono stage if the TT doesn't have a built in one.
Upper limit of £150

Play music.

If you enjoy the experience, if you find yourself playing and buying vinyl then upgrade cartridge and stylus to Audio Technica AT VM95ML (nothing more expensive).

Find a way to add EQ - I like the idea of a WiiM Pro Plus (better ADC) which gives 10 band PEQ and multi-room options.

Min £300
Upgrades ... about the same, but only after you decide that you like vinyl.

Just my opinion

 

[gxleetw]

Intrigued by this.

Currently I use an old single-speed Linn LP12, with an AT MC cart (both bought before I discovered ASR). This feeds an RME Fireface 400 for AD conversion, then I do software RIAA and room correction EQ before DA conversion.

If I replaced the Linn, MC cart and RME with the LP120 USB and fed that direct to my Mac for the same DSP treatment, objectively speaking, would I lose any SQ?

Thanks,

James

Linn LP12 has been in production for over 40 years, with numerous official and third party upgrades along the way. Without knowing specifics (bearing, sub- chassis, tonearm, power supply / motor control) it’s like saying “I own a windows PC”.

If you had not tried it and are willing to spend some fiddle time, you can get “free” SQ improvement by playing with spring suspension a little bit. The goal is to achieve pistonic bounces when the platter / subchassis / arm board / arm / cable assembly is agitated slightly. Look for YouTube videos, or search for excellent document written by Cymbiosis of UK.
The difference is not subtle, although I don’t have measurements or could find one on the web to back this.

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

I'm submitting this as a thought-experiment more than anything else, because measuring/ABX-ing countless combinations of turntable, tonearm and cartridge seems like an impossible task. But I'm curious:

How inexpensive can a vinyl-playback system be, while still delivering a faithful reproduction of the recording? As a challenge, let's consider only products which can be purchased new today, or DIY'd. And because we're believers in science, let's allow DSP and other signal processing.

And should we relax our definition of "faithful reproduction" a little bit, to imply what's audible, and not necessarily the very best measurable performance?

Some of the specific products that I've pondered include:

Numark PT01 USB portable turntable, with stock sapphire stylus replaced with diamond as per VWestlife videos.
Audio Technica LP60: the variants with BT or headphone output seem like they'd be especially handy
U-Turn Orbit Plus: manual, no suspension
Rekkord Audio P400: automatic, with suspension

Probably the wrong audio forum to ask. Most regulars don’t consider any form of vinyl playback to be sensible.

We also need to know one’s goals and audio philosophies.

“How inexpensive can a vinyl-playback system be, while still delivering a faithful reproduction of the recording?”

It’s never transparent. If faithfulness to the recording is the goal vinyl will always come in second to digital media except for recordings where all masterings on digital media are compromised. If the goal is to achieve the most transparent playback for the sake of these specific instances you might be looking at different gear than if the goal is to get the most euphoric coloration vinyl playback has to offer with the lowest invasive/ugly colorations.

They are not the same. There is crossover but there are differences too.

 

[JeffS7444]

“How inexpensive can a vinyl-playback system be, while still delivering a faithful reproduction of the recording?”

Am only concerned with what's actually pressed into the vinyl. Some stuff will never be digitized / remastered because there's simply no market, or it may be repackaged at a higher price than I care to pay.

 

[Robin L]

I've had a lot of turntables and gave up on turntables and LPs in 2019. The last turntable I used regularly was an early (1970s) Technics direct drive I found (with a cracked cover) at a thrift store for $50. The cartridge was a Shure M 44-7, tracking at around 2.5 grams, sticking to the groove like nobody's business. Bought both back around 2010, the stylus replacement cost more than the 'table but not by much. The phono preamp was a Radio Shack outboard unit. Total cost was under $200. This was not of ultimate fidelity, but very useful for the various needledrop projects of the LPs of others, usually in bad condition. As always, the limiting factor in LP reproduction is the LPs themselves. Even new, one has to deal with off-center records, or warp or inner groove distortion. I have owned much better turntables - the Strathclyde STD 305M with an SME III had better sound with decent discs, but the difference in sound quality was not as great as the difference in the ability to play back records of dubious quality. One size does not fit all.

What is sensible? That all depends on the nature of the record collection. If the collection is small, it is not sensible to spend a lot on the turntable. If there are a lot of used, worn records, it is not sensible to have a premium deck with a high priced cartridge. Some would say there is no such thing as a sensible vinyl setup. I'd say, for those looking for a simple answer, the Audio Technica LP120USB is widely available, relatively inexpensive, and fully functional. I would recommend replacing the stock elliptical stylus with a microline or Shibata stylus.