Both the Waxwing and the Ortofon Blue are worth it if you are going to listen to records.
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What might a "sensible" vinyl playback setup look like?
- Thread starter JeffS7444
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To me, a turntable is more about fine mechanics, than electronics, and the charm of using a turntable comes from the interaction with that fine mechanics and the tender loving care required with the handling of vinyl records. Thus, a "sensible vinyl playing setup" has to give me the feeling, that I'm handling a piece high quality traditional mechanical engineering and craftsmanship. The bargain basement solutions just don't do it for me.
If I were in the market for a new vinyl playing solution, I'd probably go for a Thorens TD1500 (approx 2000 € with Ortofon 2M Bronze) and Parks Waxwing connected via Toslink to Genelec F2 plus pair of Genelec G3:s.
If I were in the market for a new vinyl playing solution, I'd probably go for a Thorens TD1500 (approx 2000 € with Ortofon 2M Bronze) and Parks Waxwing connected via Toslink to Genelec F2 plus pair of Genelec G3:s.
A turntable needs to maintain the correct constant speed, not pick up vibrations and provide a tonearm that accurately tracks the record. It is not rocket science or even high tech.
There is no need or benefit in paying a lot for the turntable itself.
There is no need or benefit in paying a lot for the turntable itself.
As You say, it is not high tech, but it is fine mechanics. High quality fit and finish has a price.
J.M. Noble
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It's easy to find ABX tests that disagree with your unsupported and dogmatic opinion. Given your tone, I suspect a lot of people disagree with you most of the time and you're angry about it.
It's easy to test, as our host has done many times, and find measurable differences. Things have definitely gotten better since I bought my first CD player in 1984: if we can get hi-rez material 40 years later for no extra cost/hassle/penalty then why the hell not do it? My DAC has a measured usable resolution of ~20 bits, so why would I throw away 4 of those bits if I don't have to and I just have to check a box somewhere in an app to get the Good Stuff?
I'll agree that anything beyond 24/48 is pointless outside of music production, but I wouldn't hassle someone for their sample rate choices.
J.M. Noble
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It depends on what he means by "a lot". A bit over $1k for a new Technics direct drive is about the minimum below which there are tradeoffs between cost, performance, and reliability. This is more or less in line with what they sold for 40+ years ago, adjusted for inflation, so it makes sense--though I'll bet the current models are more consistently well-made.
There are a ton of $100 used decks out there that will do a fine job too.
Not so easily heard though. It might be technically possible for some people with exceptional hearing to detect the difference between Redbook and 24/48. Especially if they play gain riding during the quiet parts to increase the noise level. Unlikely for the vast majority in real world listening though, and even for those that can, the difference is going to be basically meaningless.
Above that, there is nothing human ears are able to detect, assuming compliant conversion and filtering is used.
I am not angry about anything. Unsupported opinion? We are humans, at least most of us here seem to be. Maybe you are an alien with superhuman hearing. Normal humans can't hear anything above 22 khz. Most can't hear above 15 khz. My hearing is still good up to 16 khz.
Trained listeners can detect certain artifacts at high volumes in ABX tests. They aren't detecting missing music or defects in the 16/44.1 tracks.
Measurable does not = audible.
From Google: "According to most noise level charts, the "base" decibel level in most homes is considered to be around 40 decibels (dB), which is roughly equivalent to a quiet library or a very calm residential area."
16 bits gives you 96 db of dynamic range. Add 96 db to a base level of 40 db and you get 136 db. Are you going to listen to music that goes from the quietest sounds up to 136 db in your home?
Also from Google: "A noise equivalent to 136 decibels (dB) would be considered extremely loud, comparable to a jet engine taking off at close range, a jackhammer operating nearby, or a very loud gunshot, all of which are considered extremely painful and dangerous to human hearing, even for brief exposures; essentially, any sound that could cause immediate and significant hearing damage."
You do not need 20 bits of dynamic range for music unless you want to accurately reproduce a "concert" featuring pin drops, normal instruments, jackhammers and jets taking off at close range. Those extra 4 bits of dynamic range are useless.
Anything beyond 16/44.1 is pointless outside of music production. "Hi-Rez" music above CD quality is snake oil.
J.M. Noble
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Snake oil means "fraudulent", which is factually not the case. It does what it says it does, and can be verified.
Your other assertions are of a like character and a reminder that most discussions in consumer audio forums are a waste of time.
Thanks for that much, at least.
(Google? Seriously?)
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Galliardist
Major Contributor
Let us know what those ABX tests are. The whole matter is disputed. For any ABX proving difference, I understand that there are claims of shortcomings in tests.
There is evidence that some young people can tell the difference: and I could personally support the use of 24/96 or 24/88.1 just to be absolutely certain of quality where the original recordings are at that level or higher, but this is frankly all borderline stuff and purely because they are the next steps in the current supported rates above 24/48. If there was a rate such as 20/64, it would be entirely adequate to cover those younger listeners, as far as I can see.
If you take the metastudy that suggested that difference may be audible, the results change quite dramatically dependent on which of a number of unsatisfactory tests are included.
As for Oohashi et al, that has been effectively debunked and never even purported to support claims that it has been cited in defence of over the years, such as hearing differences from modification of sound waves at 100kHz (Rupert Neve, no less, claimed that!).
A point to consider here are closed headphones, where humans can hear artefacts at much lower levels than through speakers in normal rooms. Back before my hearing was shot, I could hear artefacts from Winer's tests at -80dB, and I believe -85 is plausible for some. This is getting close enough to 96dB that it's possible that dithered 16bit could just fall foul. I'd call it "unlikely, but". There's some evidence that some young adults can hear up to 24kHz, as well, or so I'm assured, though I don't remember seeing such in print myself.
I do feel that as we have suitable space and transmission requirements now that there may just be a case to provide one notch above absolute certainty for any potential listener in any reasonable circumstance as a highest rate. That might not be 16/44. It might not even be 24/48. But it's almost certainly also overkill in the real world.
(Yes, I am bashing both sides here. I only know enough not to know...)
While the question of what humans are theoretically able to hear may have some academic value, and some people may find it interesting to test their audio equipment with various methods to reveal some extreme cases when something may become audible, most of us buy our audio stuff to listen recorded music.Luckily, I don't loose any sleep over the fact that I could maybe hear some noise with my ear at one centimeter from the speaker with no input signal and the volume turned way up , or that someone has been able to detect something at the extreme range of theoretical audibility. I just put the original vinyl recording of Dire Straits' Making Movies on my Linn LP12, and enjoy.
To my knowledge it has not been proven otherwise so it remains valid and it is reality. Technical.
I am using Snake oil to refer to pushing or selling something that does nothing to improve anything in the real world as opposed to our beliefs. Something that is useless with no real world benefits. That applies to "Hi-Rez" streaming and to scams like MQA.
I guess it bothers you when people don't just agree with you and reinforce your beliefs. If you believe my statements about human hearing range, dynamic range in music, useful frequencies, DAC filters and frequencies reproduced by our amplifiers are incorrect, then show me where something I stated was wrong. I choose to believe in measurements and reality.
Are you saying the db levels quoted from Google are not accurate?
Trio made some technically good turntables, but they are not exactly beautiful to my eyes (the same applies also to Technics 1200-series turntables), and the op asked for "products available as new". Mechanical moving parts wear over time and require maintenance, so a 40+ year old turntable from garage sale is likely to need some extra investment to perform as it did as new. I'm not saying it could not be a good purchase, or give a good price/performance though...From a garage sale
At least as good as a Thorens 1500. Price 1/5 of that ThorensView attachment 409515
Brian ... many serious objective reviewers agree with you, and also they have done ABX tests (some at world context).
MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio (HRA)?
A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.
archimago.blogspot.com
Brian ... many serious objective reviewers agree with you, and also they have done ABX tests (some at world context).
MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio (HRA)?
A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.
Yes, I've read that article and many others covering the topic.
Ah Kenwood ! More dear departed ones! I can keep quiet, I who have a Vieta/ADC and a Sony PS T 15.
For hirez it's the same as HD in video right ? But seeing is believing...
That said, the record you listen to has only a vague relationship with the musical performance, like a movie vs reality. Well, starting from there, it's a question as much philosophical as medical (physical and psychiatric of course). Then, it's up to you to act!
I prefer to buy records rather than expensive and/or mediocre devices (well there is a minimum, don't come with your Crosley eh!). Vinyl (when naturally no digital equivalent, I have a regularly updated search list. Mainly classical from now on)/CD/DVD and BR (if no DVD available, sometimes I have both!) but I also bought downloads (FLAC only for purism, more expensive than mp3 unfortunately).
I had seen an ABX directory about thirty years ago but the site unfortunately no longer exists (European in origin, it listed a lot of tests, almost all American).
For hirez it's the same as HD in video right ? But seeing is believing...
That said, the record you listen to has only a vague relationship with the musical performance, like a movie vs reality. Well, starting from there, it's a question as much philosophical as medical (physical and psychiatric of course). Then, it's up to you to act!
I prefer to buy records rather than expensive and/or mediocre devices (well there is a minimum, don't come with your Crosley eh!). Vinyl (when naturally no digital equivalent, I have a regularly updated search list. Mainly classical from now on)/CD/DVD and BR (if no DVD available, sometimes I have both!) but I also bought downloads (FLAC only for purism, more expensive than mp3 unfortunately).
I had seen an ABX directory about thirty years ago but the site unfortunately no longer exists (European in origin, it listed a lot of tests, almost all American).
OP
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- Thread Starter
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I haven't decided whether I'd care to pay a "fine machinery" premium for a turntable again, as I did in the 1980s and 90s.