What might a "sensible" vinyl playback setup look like?

[mhardy6647]

DL-103 is a bit oddball. It's nice. Just careful when talking about conical tips as the needles in cheapest new tt's are definitely not comparable to Denon. Should be evident in the price when 103 costs as much as the whole set but still.
Then there is low compliance and the need of MC riaa. Not a newcomer set for sure unless one knows someone to set it up.

No disagreement on any of these points.
Pretty sure Ortofon still offers an SPU conical at a (relatively speaking) astronomical price point, too. Probably only for mono, though. And probably with no vertical compliance (i.e., stereo LP incompatible mono cartridge).

At the other end of the conical spectrum - the aforementioned AT-3600.
There is a sixty-two page thread at AK:

$11 Chinese AT3600L Thread Mk. II - Champagne sound on a Beer budget!

After the previous thread met an unfortunate demise, I figured it would be a waste to let all the info just vanish completely. Champagne Sound for Beer Money? Huh? For those of you that don't already know, it's possible to source an Audio-Technica AT3600L 1/2" mount cartridge with a .6 mil...

audiokarma.org

I am just sayin'.

 

[Robin L]

Two sonic opposites, I agree.

Not what I was thinking. The two tonearms (SME III and Grace 707) were notable in being much better with high compliance cartridges than the stock arms of the Acoustic Research XA turntables I generally used. And a whole lot less sloppy than other tonearms I've used. But in retrospect, you're probably right, with the Grace arm having more of a sound signature than the SME arm, seeming to have a "brighter" characteristic.

 

[Robin L]

No disagreement on any of these points.
Pretty sure Ortofon still offers an SPU conical at a (relatively speaking) astronomical price point, too. Probably only for mono, though. And probably with no vertical compliance (i.e., stereo LP incompatible mono cartridge).

At the other end of the conical spectrum - the aforementioned AT-3600.
There is a sixty-two page thread at AK:

$11 Chinese AT3600L Thread Mk. II - Champagne sound on a Beer budget!

After the previous thread met an unfortunate demise, I figured it would be a waste to let all the info just vanish completely. Champagne Sound for Beer Money? Huh? For those of you that don't already know, it's possible to source an Audio-Technica AT3600L 1/2" mount cartridge with a .6 mil...

audiokarma.org

View attachment 381250
I am just sayin'.

I've heard/used this cartridge. Most AT cartridges have peaky treble, but this one has a more neutral sound.

 

[DSJR]

My experience is slightly different - my LP12 is rock solid for speed and all of my the Project decks are also very good. It's some of the older Rega decks I've encountered speed stability issues with. I'm making progress with the latest of those (an upgraded belt helped a lot, and changing the bearing and oil helped a bit more) but it's still a little too high and I can hear the wow & flutter on some music. It's at least listenable now though.

Compare ANY LP12 with a Garrard 301 or 401 or maybe a lenco or top vintage Dual - you'll 'hear' what I'm banging on about You don't perceive it as wayward pitch, but a kind of added 'swing' to the sound not described by bass colouration or a slightly smeared image caused by that dratted felt mat (I know what I'm saying but ain't going to say any more best not)

 

[DSJR]

Not what I was thinking. The two tonearms (SME III and Grace 707) were notable in being much better with high compliance cartridges than the stock arms of the Acoustic Research XA turntables I generally used. And a whole lot less sloppy than other tonearms I've used. But in retrospect, you're probably right, with the Grace arm having more of a sound signature than the SME arm, seeming to have a "brighter" characteristic.

The SME III originally had a soft almost bland 'sound' to us and this was with suitable MM cartridges (V15 IV, ADCs and so on). I suspect the Ortofon Concorde 'wand' would have been a perfect match, looking back as these were lean-n-lively compared to others and apparently, SME 'improved' the wand and headshell which helped as well. The G707 is a lively thing and if anything too much with modern turntables without mid-bass colouration to put the 'bloom' back, as we were more used to back then (I still have one and a half G707s here, an SME 3009 'II Improved fixed shell arm and a brand new Rega RB330 which is as intert structurally as any on th emarket).

The AR XB1 from 1975 or so worked amazingly well with an ADC XLM III tracking at 1.25g, set via it's excellent if basic stylus balance. I'd love to try one (the XB77 and first issue of 'The Turntable' had sloppy main bearings which really do affect sonics badly), but used prices are mad now and very few really understand the arm, which is far more capable than peeps today really understand imo...

Back to topic for cheap affordable used decks. Philips did a very frail and initially tetchy deck, the GA212 with electronic motor control, auto-stop and 312 with revised styling and auto stop and lift (optical sensors, not mechanical linkages). Steel platter may react with some cartridges (ADC's?) but the basic performance of well cared for surviving ones should be excellent, especially as pickups today track at 1.75 - 2g. No tests as regards tonearm resonances higher up, but it always 'sounded' good.

I've got to do something with the Lenco's here - a GL75 and a 78, but but but.....

 

[Robin L]

The SME III originally had a soft almost bland 'sound' to us and this was with suitable MM cartridges (V15 IV, ADCs and so on). I suspect the Ortofon Concorde 'wand' would have been a perfect match, looking back as these were lean-n-lively compared to others and apparently, SME 'improved' the wand and headshell which helped as well. The G707 is a lively thing and if anything too much with modern turntables without mid-bass colouration to put the 'bloom' back, as we were more used to back then (I still have one and a half G707s here, an SME 3009 'II Improved fixed shell arm and a brand new Rega RB330 which is as intert structurally as any on th emarket).

The AR XB1 from 1975 or so worked amazingly well with an ADC XLM III tracking at 1.25g, set via it's excellent if basic stylus balance. I'd love to try one (the XB77 and first issue of 'The Turntable' had sloppy main bearings which really do affect sonics badly), but used prices are mad now and very few really understand the arm, which is far more capable than peeps today really understand imo...

Back to topic for cheap affordable used decks. Philips did a very frail and initially tetchy deck, the GA212 with electronic motor control, auto-stop and 312 with revised styling and auto stop and lift (optical sensors, not mechanical linkages). Steel platter may react with some cartridges (ADC's?) but the basic performance of well cared for surviving ones should be excellent, especially as pickups today track at 1.75 - 2g. No tests as regards tonearm resonances higher up, but it always 'sounded' good.

I've got to do something with the Lenco's here - a GL75 and a 78, but but but.....

I attached my Grace 707 to an AR XA, found no lack of mid-bass. Used a number of different cartridges, recall that one was the Sumiko Blue Point. The SME III was attached to a Strathclyde 305 M, mostly used Shure 97 xe cartridges with that. That was mostly tonally neutral, save that the upper partials rolled off, as one would expect with the Shure 97.

 

[mhardy6647]

I've heard/used this cartridge. Most AT cartridges have peaky treble, but this one has a more neutral sound.

That they do (have peaky treble, that is). I am not a fan.
Supposedly adjusting the loading a bit can flatten that -- my default response is just to avoid A-T cartridges.
Life is too short, and there are (still) plenty of other choices.
There is an AT-3600 here (imagine that). I've yet to work up the gumption to try it... but one of these days, when time's hangin' heavy enough on my hands, we'll give it a whirl. I think I paid $19.95; from PartsExpress.

 

[DSJR]

I've got an 86SB if you're interested.

Got one already guv'nor - and despite tatty looks, it 'sounds' great (@Frank Dernie gave me chapter and verse as to why it sounds better than the flimsy tonearm suggests). I've used my V15IV, an ADC XLM III and Phase IV and old Ortofons in it (F/FF15E and VMS5e) and with the motor suspension sorted out (split grommet) and a fresh belt, it's subjectively as quiet as my Thorens 160. Also, with O 'Cushion' ring replaced at the bottom of the platter hub, the mech is all but silent when cycling and it allows 1.25g tracking just fine at side end...

Another sleeper I restored (the 1216 is better really, but the two decks are more similar than different), a transit smashed Dual 1214. I got s used tonearm, repaired the pillar and bearing races (the balls aren't fully captive in the 1214 and lesser Duals but are in the 1216), I re-set the bias correction/anti-skate for 1 - 2g tracking as it's fixed to a degree underneath and to finish off, I found a 1216 cast platter and fitted that. Add a 3mm cork mat and it's a great record playing machine of excellent basic engineering -

The 1216 is quite widely available, has the four pole motor as standard and is really the better option these days.

Can't help it, I love 'em. I have a 1019 too but they fetch daft money these days.

 

[DSJR]

I attached my Grace 707 to an AR XA, found no lack of mid-bass. Used a number of different cartridges, recall that one was the Sumiko Blue Point. The SME III was attached to a Strathclyde 305 M, mostly used Shure 97 xe cartridges with that. That was mostly tonally neutral, save that the upper partials rolled off, as one would expect with the Shure 97.

It wasn't just the 97 I assure you With added capacitance, which SME used to incorporate in the amp-end RCA plugs, the 97 and other models using basically the same body (non-laminated poles in these later ones I believe - it's all in VE threads if you go back far enough) could go flat to 10kHz or so before diving 5dB to 20kHz (I've seen other non HiFi Choice tests showing this and can't remember the loading they used nor the test discs although they published these details).

Hell, I'm going to say it, replacing the arm on an XA is as bad to me as those who butcher Lenco 75 and 78 models, junking (or selling off) the arms and either carving up the chassis, or using a godawful add-on plate for the motor, bearing and speed-change which lacks the retraction the idler needs when not in use. Even the carefully ground Lenco idler rubber develops 'flats' if left engaged too long (thump, thump, thump).

Liked the STD deck but the deeply recessed tonearm 'well' made for a stylus all too easily 'grounded' on the top of the plinth and I was deeply suspicious of that. I did sell and set up a good few back then though.

I'm so terribly sorry all, going off on various tangents here. Vinyl playing has been in my heart and soul since I could toddle

 

[DSJR]

That they do (have peaky treble, that is). I am not a fan.
Supposedly adjusting the loading a bit can flatten that -- my default response is just to avoid A-T cartridges.
Life is too short, and there are (still) plenty of other choices.
There is an AT-3600 here (imagine that). I've yet to work up the gumption to try it... but one of these days, when time's hangin' heavy enough on my hands, we'll give it a whirl. I think I paid $19.95; from PartsExpress.

3600L is too safe toned for real quality use, the AT91 or 91R a better bet and tracking at 2g rather than 3. I have one of these bodies with a Thakker EPO E (Dual DN251E with flip down stylus guard) and it's very nice indeed in the manner of an AT95E.

My experience of a lot of vinyl today is that it sounds too safe and dull, so the slight but sweet toned peak (actually 6dB at 10kHz) AT120E (now VM530) suits me fine as long as the arm is low mass to integrate perceived bass with the light touch elsewhere...

 

[Robin L]

Vinyl playing has been in my heart and soul since I could toddle

Guess I've exorcised that, will never return to LPs and associated gear. Could always hear IGD, and there were other issues - very pitch sensitive, so off-center records would drive me up the wall. Very glad to have a very low-cost CD player with an optical out into a Topping E30 as my front end. The best CDs in my collection are shockingly good as regards tonality and resolution.

 

[Robin L]

Hell, I'm going to say it, replacing the arm on an XA is as bad to me as those who butcher Lenco 75 and 78 models, junking (or selling off) the arms and either carving up the chassis, or using a godawful add-on plate for the motor, bearing and speed-change which lacks the retraction the idler needs when not in use. Even the carefully ground Lenco idler rubber develops 'flats' if left engaged too long (thump, thump, thump).

One of the AR turntable mods (with Grace 707 arm) involved Merrill mods - new motor, subchassis, springs, other stuff I can't recall. Sounded pretty good, though the Linn LP 12 I owned briefly sounded better.

 

[DSJR]

Guess I've exorcised that, will never return to LPs and associated gear. Could always hear IGD, and there were other issues - very pitch sensitive, so off-center records would drive me up the wall. Very glad to have a very low-cost CD player with an optical out into a Topping E30 as my front end. The best CDs in my collection are shockingly good as regards tonality and resolution.

I'd better shut up in this thread, but just to say I agree with you in terms of sonics*. I love to tinker with turntables and did it professionally for dealer friends well into retirement, hence my comments about losing some of my 'touch' with LP12 suspensions as some samples, even today, can be difficult).

*My main issue now is the constricted dynamics vinyl seems to have (I can't afford and would rarely use a 'proper high end' deck now). I was troubled by tape dropout on a favourite track on one 10CC album I love and all the digital versions of this track off 'Sheet Music' is the same, the drop-out getting worse with each mastering (either the tape played again and again, or processing done on the 2007 issue to 'enhance' the sound further, I don't know). I bought two (in the end) original cuts of this album on vinyl, the drop-out isn't there at all but my Gawd my ears, hearing aids (which limit with continuous compressed sounds like a kettle working up to boil) closing down and the generally typical, smaller scale of vinyl just put me off again. These blasted Harbeths DO NOT favour vinyl either (whatever you say, the ATC 100A's didn't crucify this turntable system at all back in the day!!!). Got to start selling stuff and re-thinking my audio-system-future methinks.

"Never quite said what I wanted to say to you
Never quite managed the words to explain to you
Never quite knew how to make them believable, And now the time is gone
Another time undone..."

 

[Petrushka]

Riding high in the groove also helps by avoiding the dirt that inevitably collects at the bottom.

I made a vacuum wand out of PVC. I make the grungiest records look like new. I ignore the warnings about chemicals. I use distilled water, Dawn, and rubbing alcohol. As much as it takes.

 

[AudioSceptic]

One of the AR turntable mods (with Grace 707 arm) involved Merrill mods - new motor, subchassis, springs, other stuff I can't recall. Sounded pretty good, though the Linn LP 12 I owned briefly sounded better.

If you replace so much of a TT, as the Merrill mods do, how is it an AR XA anymore?

 

[Robin L]

If you replace so much of a TT, as the Merrill mods do, how is it an AR XA anymore?

Not much, but why worry? Point being that the Merrill mods were made of better and more appropriate stuff.

 

[AudioSceptic]

Not much, but why worry? Point being that the Merrill mods were made of better and more appropriate stuff.

I always thought that the cast alloy sub-chassis was one of the best parts of the (any?) TT, the only problem being that the arm bearing was built-in to that casting, so replacing the arm was not an easy job.

 

[Robin L]

I always thought that the cast alloy sub-chassis was one of the best parts of the (any?) TT, the only problem being that the arm bearing was built-in to that casting, so replacing the arm was not an easy job.

Correct, not to mention that replacing the arm could throw the suspension off-balance. That was the beauty part of the Merrill mods - a heavier and less resonant subchassis with a pre-drilled hole appropriate for the replacement tonearm.

 

[ChrisMag2099]

If the turntable maintains a correct constant speed and doesn't do anything to produce extra vibrations, the only part that really affects the sound is the cartridge/stylus.

I'd encourage you to spend some time reading through the Korf blog. They've done a lot of measurements of head shells, tonearms and bearings.

Example: https://korfaudio.com/blog49

 

[AudioSceptic]

I'm submitting this as a thought-experiment more than anything else, because measuring/ABX-ing countless combinations of turntable, tonearm and cartridge seems like an impossible task. But I'm curious:

How inexpensive can a vinyl-playback system be, while still delivering a faithful reproduction of the recording? As a challenge, let's consider only products which can be purchased new today, or DIY'd. And because we're believers in science, let's allow DSP and other signal processing.

And should we relax our definition of "faithful reproduction" a little bit, to imply what's audible, and not necessarily the very best measurable performance?

Some of the specific products that I've pondered include:

Numark PT01 USB portable turntable, with stock sapphire stylus replaced with diamond as per VWestlife videos.
Audio Technica LP60: the variants with BT or headphone output seem like they'd be especially handy
U-Turn Orbit Plus: manual, no suspension
Rekkord Audio P400: automatic, with suspension

I have to ask, did you expect all this when you asked your question? ;-)