What might a "sensible" vinyl playback setup look like?

[JeffS7444]

Goldring GR1... Does it sound as good as my LP12 - of course not.

But why? And if were were to make recordings of the same record, using the same cartridge, would we be able to reliably discern differences in proper ABX comparison?

 

[anmpr1]

... I'd vote for a good-working-order Yamaha, Kenwood or Technics table... I have three 90s Yamaha tables that have held up very well and still play well.

Generally, older record players work pretty well, and for a long time. My personal experience however is that anything from the '70s (and earlier) is likely going to need some sort of an overhaul. This could be anything from cleaning, re-greasing, replacement of idlers/belts for mechanical players (Dual, Garrard...), to circuit rebuilds on electronic machines.

With it all, you have to worry about parts availability. Sometimes this means scavenging another period deck, and then you could be trading one problem for another.

Case in point... recently my 50 year old Technics SL-1100a player started the inevitable servo speed drift problem. They pretty much all do that by now (you can read posts on the blogs and forums about it). The good news is that circuit board components are available. In my situation, a hobbyist selling the on-line marketplace offers a 'kit' (bag of parts) for twenty dollars plus shipping. It covers almost everything on the board. You could buy each on your own for less, but what's $20.00, these days? Schematics and service manuals are available on-line, free download.

With the older stuff, you have to worry about the age of the circuit board itself. They can become brittle, break easily or de-laminate. Removing a soldered part is not as easy as replacing one, for sure. Take your time.

Working one part at a time (I found that's the best way--replace then test, rinse and repeat), the machine was soon back to normal operation (replaced a zener diode and about 8 caps). Took me a couple of hours and a burned pinky finger, from accidentally touching the iron. But where else are you going to find something comparable these days, for twenty dollars?

 

[antcollinet]

It’s exactly what the guy from phono phono in Berlin says. If a system is just about 10K€ its not worth his time to listen to it.

Then he is a prize dick.

 

[niblue]

But why? And if were were to make recordings of the same record, using the same cartridge, would we be able to reliably discern differences in proper ABX comparison?

Yes. I can hear differences, so they must be measureable (not that I'm all that interested!). For one thing the LP12 has much better speed accuracy and speed stability (they only thing I've actually measured on both of them), despite being much, much older. They've got different arms and cartridges though - so it'd take work to determine where the differences come from.

 

[EERecordist]

I'm submitting this as a thought-experiment more than anything else, because measuring/ABX-ing countless combinations of turntable, tonearm and cartridge seems like an impossible task. But I'm curious:

How inexpensive can a vinyl-playback system be, while still delivering a faithful reproduction of the recording? As a challenge, let's consider only products which can be purchased new today, or DIY'd. And because we're believers in science, let's allow DSP and other signal processing.

And should we relax our definition of "faithful reproduction" a little bit, to imply what's audible, and not necessarily the very best measurable performance?

Some of the specific products that I've pondered include:

Numark PT01 USB portable turntable, with stock sapphire stylus replaced with diamond as per VWestlife videos.
Audio Technica LP60: the variants with BT or headphone output seem like they'd be especially handy
U-Turn Orbit Plus: manual, no suspension
Rekkord Audio P400: automatic, with suspension

Depending on how large and valuable someone's record collection is, today, I would get a liquid washing system for the media. Some you rotate by hand and there is a soft brush, and they have fancy ultrasonic ones too. You could probably make back some of the cost by charging people to clean their records. Good sleeve liners are a plus too. Add a tracking force gauge. There is software to remove clicks from playback, but I have not researched real time versions.

To your list, I would go with AT. They know the field and do high quality manufacturing. Probably better resale value.

For pure curiosity, the AT Sound Burger is back. It has USB and bluetooth out. It would be perfect for hipster picnics.

 

[LTig]

I'm submitting this as a thought-experiment more than anything else, because measuring/ABX-ing countless combinations of turntable, tonearm and cartridge seems like an impossible task. But I'm curious:

How inexpensive can a vinyl-playback system be, while still delivering a faithful reproduction of the recording? As a challenge, let's consider only products which can be purchased new today, or DIY'd. And because we're believers in science, let's allow DSP and other signal processing.

And should we relax our definition of "faithful reproduction" a little bit, to imply what's audible, and not necessarily the very best measurable performance?

Some of the specific products that I've pondered include:

Numark PT01 USB portable turntable, with stock sapphire stylus replaced with diamond as per VWestlife videos.
Audio Technica LP60: the variants with BT or headphone output seem like they'd be especially handy
U-Turn Orbit Plus: manual, no suspension
Rekkord Audio P400: automatic, with suspension

Late to this thread but since they haven't been mentioned: a Pioneer PLX 500 or PLX 1000, [EDIT] the former with builtin phono preamp and USB output.

Use an MM pickup with a microline needle cut or similar. This needle cut delivers a cleaner signal even with records whose grooves have been mistreated by standard needle cuts (conical/elliptical), speak used records.

An MC system like the AT33PTG/II should sound better but requires a matching phono preamp, and I don't know wether it would fit to the arm of the PLX.

 

[LTig]

Don't spend so much for a cartridge, buy an eq instead.

Nope. A more expensive microline needle tracks the groove much better and sounds good even on records worn down by standard needle cuts. Nothing any EQ could possibly deliver.

 

[Groove01]

My soon to be 16yr daughter got into vinyl last year and asked for a TT. After some research for entry level tables I found a Pro-Ject debut carbon “esprit” on sale for ~$399. It came with the Ortifon 2M red cartridge. I paired it with an old school HK3300 - 2 channel receiver w/phono from the early 90’s and a pair of Infinity RS1 book shelves I had in the closet. (I told my wife we’d need that stuff one day - lol)

It sounds pretty damn good TBH. I was kinda impressed. All in, if you could find the same sale on that TT, that’s maybe $600 - $700 for the whole system - likely less. The receiver and speakers are cheap 2nd hand.

I since built a pair of Parts Express speakers for her (I think the RS1’s are better though)

 

[Platypus20]

Late to this thread but since they haven't been mentioned: a Pioneer PLX 500 or PLX 1000, with builtin phono preamp.

Use an MM pickup with a microline needle cut or similar. This needle cut delivers a cleaner signal even with records whose grooves have been mistreated by standard needle cuts (conical/elliptical), speak used records.

An MC system like the AT33PTG/II should sound better but requires a matching phono preamp, and I don't know wether it would fit to the arm of the PLX.

PLX 500 has built in phono preamp and a USB output, the PLX 1000 has no preamp or USB output

 

[DarkKoala]

My soon to be 16yr daughter got into vinyl last year and asked for a TT. After some research for entry level tables I found a Pro-Ject debut carbon “esprit” on sale for ~$399. It came with the Ortifon 2M red cartridge. I paired it with an old school HK3300 - 2 channel receiver w/phono from the early 90’s and a pair of Infinity RS1 book shelves I had in the closet. (I told my wife we’d need that stuff one day - lol)

It sounds pretty damn good TBH. I was kinda impressed. All in, if you could find the same sale on that TT, that’s maybe $600 - $700 for the whole system - likely less. The receiver and speakers are cheap 2nd hand.

I since built a pair of Parts Express speakers for her (I think the RS1’s are better though)
View attachment 381132

I had similar system when I was a student:
Marantz PM62
Kenwood CD player that I hardly used and cool usb sound card to play my pirated mp3s.
German ASW 3way speakers … pretty good ones

After got my first job I gave it away to a friend. he used the audio technica technics homage from back then with the builtin phono pre. It is connected with me for 20 years. And when I got the speakers already they were 20 years old and the amps and things were also around 10-20years old. And the thing still works. My friend doesn’t care too much, so he maybe connected the TT wrong and sounded terrible.. but he also has a cassette deck and stuff…. all makes noise.

 

[LTig]

PLX 500 has built in phono preamp and a USB output, the PLX 1000 has no preamp or USB output

Thanks, correction applied.

 

[Platypus20]

Thanks, correction applied.

I have a PLX 1000, almost as good as my SL1200 M2

 

[Groove01]

I had similar system when I was a student:
Marantz PM62
Kenwood CD player that I hardly used and cool usb sound card to play my pirated mp3s.
German ASW 3way speakers … pretty good ones

After got my first job I gave it away to a friend. he used the audio technica technics homage from back then with the builtin phono pre. It is connected with me for 20 years. And when I got the speakers already they were 20 years old and the amps and things were also around 10-20years old. And the thing still works. My friend doesn’t care too much, so he maybe connected the TT wrong and sounded terrible.. but he also has a cassette deck and stuff…. all makes noise.

I have a couple of old HK receivers sitting around from the early 90’s that I got as I was just entering the hobby. They still work and actually sound surprisingly decent.

Not going to say they are reference, but for casual listening, 2nd system - they are great.

That pre-ject TT was a really pleasant surprise to be honest. Nice little acrylic platter, decent motor & carbon TA, and decent cartridge. For the cost, on sale - it was really hard to beat. I’m am thrilled with it at that price point and it’s a really nice entry level table IMHO.

Super easy to set up as well!

 

[J.M. Noble]

I could be happy for the rest of my life with my SL-1500C with a 2M Blue stylus upgrade, a Schiit Sys or equivalent DIY passive volume control jobbie, an Apple USB to headphone adapter, and my synth rig's JBL 305p powered speakers.

If I had to economize on the turntable, make it a $400 Craigslist SL-1200 and a decent preamp or one of the Pioneer or A-T direct drive decks with an onboard preamp. I've owned Pro-ject and Rega belt drives, no thank you.

 

[Platypus20]

The local record store sells the Audio-Technica AT-LPXUSB FOR $300, built in phono preamp, USB output and includes a mounted AT VM95E cartridge, for $330 they sells the model that adds BT

 

[rank]

Nope. A more expensive microline needle tracks the groove much better and sounds good even on records worn down by standard needle cuts. Nothing any EQ could possibly deliver.

Never noticed that, on the contrary.

 

[whit]

Fluance RT81 $249

I had the Audio-Technica AT120XUSB, switched to the Fluance RT85, and the Fluance is to my ear better, plus much better looking.(I did also upgrade the cart to an Audio-Technica AT120Eb and then put a VM540ML needle in it. So I guess we're out of the cheapest range.) Long story short, Audio-Technica has long made excellent (to my ears) carts and needles. But their "Hey, it looks like an expensive Technics turntable" knockoff ... wasn't impressed. On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend Fluance speakers, but their turntables are kinda nice, especially for the price.

 

[JeffS7444]

The local record store sells the Audio-Technica AT-LPXUSB FOR $300, built in phono preamp, USB output and includes a mounted AT VM95E cartridge, for $330 they sells the model that adds BT

Ooh fancy, AptX BT on the LP120XBT-USB.

 

[Brian Hall]

But why? And if were were to make recordings of the same record, using the same cartridge, would we be able to reliably discern differences in proper ABX comparison?

If the turntable maintains a correct constant speed and doesn't do anything to produce extra vibrations, the only part that really affects the sound is the cartridge/stylus.

 

[mhardy6647]

Never noticed that, on the contrary.

Setup is everything with the "hyper" stylus configurations.