What makes the sensation of "sound stage"?

[Emlin]

So are the 2 qualities subtractive, relative to each other?

You can certainly have one without the other: a huge soundstage with a total blur within, and precise location within a very limited space.

A system that provides a large soundstage no matter the recording is doing something wrong, ie dominating what is in the recording rather than reproducing it.

 

[Destination: Moon]

This song makes my hair stand up. It's a pretty good version on this tube link.
It sounds great on both pairs but there's a sense you get at the opening that's much more pronounced on one pair

 

[Cuniberti]

Hi, I've had several pairs of speakers over the years. But it was always a clear upgrade and I never really looked back at the previous speakers.

Fast forward to today, I have 2 sets of very similar highly rated book shelf, 2 ways. They both sound amazing!

I've got them both broken in. Swapped them back and forth. One pair has a noticably deeper more 3 dimensional sound. It's like having the musicians in my house. Why? Same amp, same exact location, same source

Acoustic phase.

 

[Emlin]

This song makes my hair stand up. It's a pretty good version on this tube link.
It sounds great on both pairs but there's a sense you get at the opening that's much more pronounced on one pair

I don't think that there is much to be gained by concentrating on one particular part of one particular song by one particular band - unless that's all that you listen to.

 

[Destination: Moon]

I don't think that there is much to be gained by concentrating on one particular part of one particular song by one particular band - unless that's all that you listen to.

LoL - it's not all I listen to but the opening few seconds sound starkly different on the 2 pairs so I thought I'd share.
And don't get me wrong, both sound impressive.

 

[test1223]

That's exactly what I'm hearing! It makes it really hard to pick which one I like better!

The sealed one is definitely tighter which I also prefer I think.... But the other one is much more open and immersive like you say....tone wise they both seem similar although I think I prefer the way horns sound on the 55... Less reedy, or something hard to define

Yes, precision vs. envelopment. It helps a lot to choose the right listening distance and placement. With low DI speaker nearfield with higher DI midfield.

This might be of interest
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nt-wide-vs-narrow-directivity-and-more.15171/

 

[tuga]

No, both are similar size and design. One is sealed with a large passive radiator and the other is ported to the rear.

One is definitely more directional. Interestingly, the directional one seems to have the more district sound stage. The other is far less directional and open sounding, yet the music doesn't sound as 3 dimensional? Does that make sense?

Yes.

 

[Wombat]

I am not fussed with stereo soundstage. It's an effect, unrelated to the unknown spatial arrangements in a studio, being produced in random rooms with random loudspeakers. So, it can't be right?

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

I am not fussed with stereo soundstage. It's an effect, unrelated to the unknown spatial arrangements in a studio, being produced in random rooms with random loudspeakers. So, it can't be right?

Unless recorded with microphone techniques and a natural room which preserve the natural soundstage, i.e. classical specifically.

 

[BenB]

I am not fussed with stereo soundstage. It's an effect, unrelated to the unknown spatial arrangements in a studio, being produced in random rooms with random loudspeakers. So, it can't be right?

The way I see it, stereo has flaws. Certain reflections (specifically sidewall reflections that are separated in time and azimuth from the speakers) help mitigate those flaws. It's rather inauthentic for sound to come exclusively from a wedge of space in front of you less than 60 degrees wide, so sidewall reflections actually add authenticity, while also filling in the spectral dip caused by cross-talk. In contrast, I've heard that people who listened to stereo in an anechoic chamber were disappointed with the sound.
On the other hand, I don't see a flaw in stereo that front-wall reflections would mitigate. Anything that's supposed to come from that direction should be in the mix already. However, I also feel that preference is more important than any considerations of what's "correct" or "authentic". So if someone prefers strong front-wall reflections, I'd say have at it.

 

[Destination: Moon]

Unless recorded with microphone techniques and a natural room which preserve the natural soundstage, i.e. classical specifically.

I'm in no way an expert on this but there are many recordings that have this level of detailed imaging outside classical genre. Jazz recordings with layered studio mixing, often project this imaging too. Its hard to imagine it's by accident. The song I linked to above, has what I think of as an effect, not imaging exactly, that's startling when your paying attention. I can't imagine that's not on purpose either.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

I'm in no way an expert on this but there are many recordings that have this level of detailed imaging outside classical genre. Jazz recordings with layered mixing, often project this imaging too. Its hard to imagine it's by accident. The song I linked to above has what I think of as an effect, not imaging exactly that's startling when your paying attention. I can't imagine that's not on purpose either.

Oh, I agree. I used classical as an example since its more likely to be recorded with more 'minimal-purist' techniques, but I have recordings of all types which throw all encompassing soundstages. With these however, the imaging, especially that which goes well outside the boundaries of the speakers is more likely to be from processing in the studio. Its still subjectively real though, and just as enjoyable.

 

[Thomas_A]

"Soundstage" is likely affected by detail and background silence during reproduction of a record. All primary reflections from the speaker side (the wall) must be attenuated, one way or another. Primary goal is to hear "all" details including reflections from the venue in the recording itself.

Secondly, there are some tricks in the frequency curve to allow the psychoacoustic "stage" a bit forward or a bit laid back, the latter giving the impression of "depth and space".

Third, "soundstage" may probably be subjectively be improved by room reflections, but I would not call this soundstage, but rather the "envelope".

 

[audiofooled]

Hi, I've had several pairs of speakers over the years. But it was always a clear upgrade and I never really looked back at the previous speakers.

Fast forward to today, I have 2 sets of very similar highly rated book shelf, 2 ways. They both sound amazing!

I've got them both broken in. Swapped them back and forth. One pair has a noticably deeper more 3 dimensional sound. It's like having the musicians in my house. Why? Same amp, same exact location, same source

Exactly. Loudspeakers with different DI require different placements, different toe in, different spacing, different listening position and possibly a different amplifier, especially if they are different designs (closed vs. ported.) Because simply they interact with the room differently which may lead to different tonality and imaging regarding focus of the instruments in the sound stage. Finally, waveform summations at your listening position could be different. Like when headphones change their tonality if you move them slightly.
Both can be pleasing, they are just different. If you still can't decide, I'd suggest you try experimenting with positioning and setup, and if you have tone controls on your amp, try that as well. I mean, wide dispersion one can certainly be brought to focus, it's just more picky on the stuff I mentioned. If done right, it may reward you with more comfortable listening position (wider sweet spot) and more even tonality for background listening anywhere in the room.

 

[carsknivesbeer]

In one of the last headphones reviews (I can't find the section of the video...) Amir talks about 1-3k being a factor in imaging. Is this also applicable to speakers and could it be related to the crossover point?

 

[audiofooled]

In one of the last headphones reviews (I can't find the section of the video...) Amir talks about 1-3k being a factor in imaging. Is this also applicable to speakers and could it be related to the crossover point?

Headphones are different. They have a better chance in being "neutral" in reproducing timing and directional cues as it were recorded. Loudspeakers interact with a room. They have the best chance in being "neutral" if their on axis in room response curve is similar to wider degrees of off axis response. This way they preserve tonality of the reflections and provide clearer imaging and wider sound stage or spaciousness, if you will... In this sense, crossovers can mess up the effect if not done right. But there are many more design factors that have to be done right in the first place. And then there are positioning, setup, etc...

 

[Chrispy]

FWIW a speaker with a passive radiator isn't sealed, just a different form of porting....

 

[Destination: Moon]

FWIW a speaker with a passive radiator isn't sealed, just a different form of porting....

But it's tighter, with more damping the bigger the excursion

 

[Destination: Moon]

Headphones are different. They have a better chance in being "neutral" in reproducing timing and directional cues as it were recorded. Loudspeakers interact with a room. They have the best chance in being "neutral" if their on axis in room response curve is similar to wider degrees of off axis response. This way they preserve tonality of the reflections and provide clearer imaging and wider sound stage or spaciousness, if you will... In this sense, crossovers can mess up the effect if not done right. But there are many more design factors that have to be done right in the first place. And then there are positioning, setup, etc...

I never hear imaging in headphones the way it presents in loud speakers

 

[Chrispy]

But it's tighter, with more damping the bigger the excursion

Eh? The design doesn't change because you perceive the end result in a particular way. A passive radiator is just another way of "porting" a speaker. Bass response issues more likely due to your positioning/room/integration but depends on the design....