What makes a speaker boring or exciting ? and can it be measured?

[MattHooper]

Secondly, I have observed quite a few people who buy a speaker that they say is "exciting" or "involving" only to become disenchanted after about a year or so. The brain seems to make a long-term comparison between poorly reproduced music (especially voice) and the natural sounds around us, and point out the difference ... eventually.

It’s an interesting idea. Though there’s also plenty of audiophiles who have moved from speakers they found “ boring” overtime to one’s they feel are more exciting.

Perhaps it boils down most to an audiophile’s previous history of gear ownership and what they are moving on from, as well as the need for replenishing that dopamine hit of getting something new.

I recognize the latter in myself at points, which is one reason I usually have more than one pair of loudspeakers to keep things fresh.

 

[MattHooper]

Not saying this has any applicability to the KH310:

There is an approach to getting smooth frequency response from a driver which calls for an exceptionally well-damped diaphragm, either by material choice or geometry or both. My opinion, based largely on being disappointed in drivers which measured amazingly well (but not verified by controlled blind testing), is that drivers with exceptionally well-damped diaphragms tend to have a sonic characteristic which could be described as "less exiting" or "less lively/less dynamic" or "less articulate".

That’s a fascinating proposition, Duke.
I’m wondering if some of that coincides with my own impressions. Would you mind giving an example or two of the type of well damped diaphragms?

It seems to me that anything from a modern metal driver to old paper drivers could be described as “ well damped” depending on exactly what you mean. (e.g. The heroic measures used for damping modern metal drivers versus the somewhat self damping behaviour of paper or polypropylene drivers)

Cheers

 

[Duke]

That’s a fascinating proposition, Duke.
I’m wondering if some of that coincides with my own impressions. Would you mind giving an example or two of the type of well damped diaphragms?

It seems to me that anything from a modern metal driver to old paper drivers could be described as “ well damped” depending on exactly what you mean. (e.g. The heroic measures used for damping modern metal drivers versus the somewhat self damping behaviour of paper or polypropylene drivers)

Cheers

I'll shoot you a message; I'd rather not post the specifics on a public forum.

 

[MRC01]

Typical HiFi Showroom sound will often be called "exciting" at first listen, but can quickly become tiresome. Boosted HF and LF. The boosted HF particularly will give an extremely "detailed" sound, but it's false detail: a frequency response boost will make certain things stand out. This is obvious.

Exactly. In this sense, boring can be good. It means the speaker doesn't jump out and grab you. When a speaker does jump out and grab you, it's often (though not always) the effect of some kind of flaw that becomes obvious and fatiguing over time. If in the first moments of listening your very first impression is "this sounds exciting", that is usually bad and your BS detector should redline.

What's less obvious is that nominally-flat speakers can be "detailed", in that their nonlinear distortion (harmonic, IMD - anything not present in the original signal) is low, so the "noise floor" is also low. ie, you can listen into a recording and hear things going on 20-30dB down.
This isn't possible with a cheap Bluetooth speaker operating at 5% THD - there's too much mush which masks the low-level detail within the recording.

I agree, which means just because "boring" is the opposite of "exciting", it does not imply that "boring" is good because "exciting" can be bad. "Boring" could mean a speaker that doesn't have obvious flaws that jump out and grab you. But it could have more subtle flaws. Such as being opaque, where all recordings sound similar. That's related to close listening to good recordings not revealing layers of detail, because the speaker is masking them.

In short, the terms "exciting" and "boring" are neither necessarily good, nor necessarily bad. Thus, when using them to describe equipment, one must give context.

PS: I like to take the term "high fidelity" as literally as possible, as in "fidelity to the recording being played". The audio system should sound exactly as "exciting" or "boring" as that recording, no more and no less.

 

[Mr. Widget]

I like to take the term "high fidelity" as literally as possible, as in "fidelity to the recording being played". The audio system should sound exactly as "exciting" or "boring" as that recording, no more and no less.

In principle I agree with you 100%.

That said, a number of years ago I had an opportunity to chose between a pair of Revel Ultima2 Salons and the JBL Everest II. The Revels were arguably the more high fidelity (literal meaning)... for me the decision wasn't even close. The Eversts sounded more dynamic and alive than the Revels. I lived with the Everests for quite a few years and could listen to them for hours... they were not at all fatiguing.

FWIW: If you have never heard them, just because they have a couple of horns for the mids and highs, they sound nothing like a Klipsch or most other horn based designs.

 

[MRC01]

That said, a number of years ago I had an opportunity to chose between a pair of Revel Ultima2 Salons and the JBL Everest II. The Revels were arguably the more high fidelity (literal meaning)... for me the decision wasn't even close. The Eversts sounded more dynamic and alive than the Revels. I lived with the Everests for quite a few years and could listen to them for hours... they were not at all fatiguing.

Audio is always an illusion, even the best engineered most transparent speakers (and audio systems in general, but especially speakers) are not perfect and make different tradeoffs. Choose your poison!

 

[Penelinfi]

Exciting : generally, something being different. Exceptions for yuk peaky distortion, yet sometimes even that is fun.
Bass.

Sparkly or airy treble - usually above frequencies of silibance , while not being irritating.

Some combination of midrange FR, baffle shape/diffraction that gives you your "singer is in front of me". Maybe it's simulating human mouth/head dispersion characteristics.

Physical impact - usually from SPL and large bass drivers. Sometimes a big peak in the bass can give you this

The music played, of course.

Your current mood.

Much excitement is fleeting. So perhaps refrain from buying too many speakers for difference, unless it's affordable for you.
The good news is that there are a lot of affordable, non ideal speakers.

Personally I feel my ideal is a speaker response with Fletcher Munson curve as I seldom listen up really loud or for long. No unagreeable distortion and even dispersion.
Also compensation for ear shape maybe be worth looking at. Eg a speaker with less 4kHz hash is less fatiguing or set off by on the line recordings

 

[stoneeh]

I agree with the assessment that the KH310 sounds boring and lifeless; but since I have listened to other speakers that measure even more neutral (especially in terms of nonlinearities), and don't sound boring, I cannot agree it's due to the KH310's flat alignment. I suspect it's due to its nonlinear behavior, the exact audible consequences of which has still not been fully scientifically researched and explained.

 

[Jim Taylor]

I agree with the assessment that the KH310 sounds boring and lifeless; but since I have listened to other speakers that measure even more neutral (especially in terms of nonlinearities), and don't sound boring, I cannot agree it's due to the KH310's flat alignment. I suspect it's due to its nonlinear behavior, the exact audible consequences of which has still not been fully scientifically researched and explained.

Which nonlinear characteristics, in your opinion, cause audible consequences described as "boring and lifeless"? For your convenience, here is a link to a paper by Wolfgang Klippel on non-linearities :

https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/15_Mfrs_Publications/24_Klippel/AES_ALMA_and_Other_Papers/2006_LS_Non-lins_Causes_Parameters_Symptoms.pdf

 

[thewas]

The non-linearities - if they exist - would appear at higher levels so wouldn't be an explanation for normal listening levels.

I rather see its polite character (myself never found it boring, just rather neutral in a positive sense) in its sound power dip around 2 kHz which can take away some "attack":

 

[Sokel]

What I find boring is small speakers pretending to be bigger with all shorts of tricks.
Also, low SPL ability with the excuse of lower extension, which in turn makes them have even lower SPL ability!

Extremely boring is also some "in your face" tunning some speakers have making them good only to listen to someone crying along with a small violin

(the rest, are going to the 'annoying" region, they don't bore me, they hurt me )

 

[Old_School_Brad]

a sensible frequency response, extended LF and a large dynamic range available. Something that can do "punch" when called upon.

That's pretty much it.
It requires space and power, but once you have a system like this, you likely won’t feel the need to search for anything else -I know I didn’t.

 

[ZolaIII]

Lack of dynamics is boring, compression, falling apart and not even reaching where energy is. Dynamics that shouldn't be there or are there but in much more pure form than used too. That's exiting but with auditory adoption that felling faids away becoming normal/standard. That's training. After long listening and over saturation it's all boring so you make pause, have a Sneakers and learn not to push it eventually. Great example being exited is conclusion for KH310 review (hire) from someone who pretty much heard it all.

 

[Hear Here]

1) You say that you have "exciting" speakers. What are these speakers, and how did you know initially that they were "exciting"? What was your initial amplifier?
2) You auditioned several amplifiers in your home. From what I can understand of your post, you did this after you had found out that you had "exciting" speakers. You found some amplifiers that were "boring". This means that you found amplifiers that SUBTRACTED something from the recorded signal compared to what you had previously heard from your "exciting" speakers, correct?
3) What were these "boring" amplifiers? Were they tube or solid-state? What, exactly, did they subtract?

Thank you for the clarifications.

1) Speakers at the time of my amp tests were Avantgarde Unos. These exhibited their "exciting" nature even before I'd heard them! Sounds bizarre but my excitement was first generated by the Stereophile review of these speakers. Having recently bought used ATC50 Actives, I urgently wanted to resell them and replace with something more exciting.

2) I had owned the Unos since I bought them mew in 2002 and had been using SETs to power them, mainly with 845 or PX25 output tubes. After retirement when much longer listening sessions would be likely, I decided to look for a SS amp that would offer equally exciting music, but not to "mimic" SET sound. Initially I bought, unheard (as it was a new model with no local dealer) a Benchmark AHB2 amp that a fellow AG user with no worries about cost was raving about. Big mistake - dull as ditchwater! Music sounded more like Musak, although lots of people buy them, probably prompted by its excellent measurements and they haven't actually compared it with other perhaps less well-measuring amps! I then embarked on a search for a more exciting amp in the £3-8K range, some power, others integrated or all-in-ones.

3) I bought new or used, or borrowed from dealers amps from Sugden, Accuphase, Micromega, Lyngdorf, NAD, GamuT, Valvet, Quad, Mark Levinson and Bakoon. All ss but representing Classes A, AB and D. I kept an open mind and had each in my system for between a week and several months. Some were beautiful amps that sounded great but a little too "polite" (eg Accupgase A36) and others were non-starters (Benchmark, Quad, Sugden) but a couple stood out as particularly "exciting" - the GamuT and the NAD. Sadly the GamuT had a bad habit that resulted in its resale after some months. With my 102 dB speakers, they sent a massive surge of power on start up and shut down that caused a worrisome thump. I settled on the NAD M33 that I still have, after upgrading the speakers from Unos to 2006-vintage Duos to the new Duo XDs that I currently use.

I'm currently looking to upgrade my electronics by getting a streamer preamp (NAD M66 or a rival) and power amp (I already have Atma-Sphere Class D monos) although I could go mad and replace the speakers with the latest Duo GT fully active speakers.

 

[dedobot]

For me its tight, fast and detailed beat . "High resolution" in bass.

 

[Hear Here]

What makes a speaker boring or exciting ? and can it be measured?

Frankly, who (if their interest is listening to music) really cares about measurements? If I was pawing over measurement stats, I'd probably never have considered buying my speakers. Isn't it what the music sounds like and what effect the music has on your soul that matters?

 

[Matt_Holland]

I'm currently looking to upgrade my electronics by getting a streamer preamp (NAD M66 or a rival) and power amp (I already have Atma-Sphere Class D monos) although I could go mad and replace the speakers with the latest Duo GT fully active speakers.

Seems to me you have a wonderful system and no need to upgrade the power amps.

What about room acoustics? Have you invested in that part of the equation? I find that sometimes a room can get to the point of overload from a reverberation point of view at which point the sound becomes harsh. A nicely damped room can allow a system to play loud and clean which I think can be more exciting.

Subwoofers? That could be an area to look at too.

Edit to add: a new streamer/pre-amp with subwoofer output and DSP for bass management would be great. Bass is exciting!

New kit in itself can the most exciting thing!

 

[MKR]

For me its tight, fast and detailed beat . "High resolution" in bass.

100% this in my experience. Yes, transparent/detailed mids and highs important for “excitement”, but nothing gets my goose bumps going more than hard hitting fast/detailed low frequencies, especially mid-bass. And nothing does this better than cardioid for my ears.

 

[gnarly]

I've had the pleasure of exciting many guests with my audio setup over the last half dozen years...all ages, both sexes.
Often folks bust out with huge jackass grins on their faces. And leave the listening area and head over to a speaker stack to examine and touch them.
Most often heard comment..."I've never heard anything like that".

Formula is simple: crank up an awesome tune on a system having extraordinary dynamic SPL and bass capability.

That has very low distortion even when cranked. Including bass down to 30Hz or a little lower.
And that is completely uncompressed/ unclipped throughout the spectrum at high SPL.
And stays unclipped/uncompressed, including headroom for transients +18dB above average high SPL..

The completely clean headroom room for transients at high SPL,
I think is the key to the observed excitement, and receiving "never heard anything like that" comments".

 

[Sokel]

I've had the pleasure of exciting many guests with my audio setup over the last half dozen years...all ages, both sexes.
Often folks bust out with huge jackass grins on their faces. And leave the listening area and head over to a speaker stack to examine and touch them.
Most often heard comment..."I've never heard anything like that".

Formula is simple: crank up an awesome tune on a system having extraordinary dynamic SPL and bass capability.

That has very low distortion even when cranked. Including bass down to 30Hz or a little lower.
And that is completely uncompressed/ unclipped throughout the spectrum at high SPL.
And stays unclipped/uncompressed, including headroom for transients +18dB above average high SPL..

The completely clean headroom room for transients at high SPL,
I think is the key to the observed excitement, and receiving "never heard anything like that" comments".

Yep, that's what big mains monitor are for.
Soffit-mount them in a nice, treated room as well and you're there.