What is going on with Paradigm?

[MrPeabody]

Here's another Stereophile measurement from fifteen years ago, clearing showing the exaggeration of upper treble. While I don't doubt that there are some Paradigm speakers that don't show this, it certainly looks to me like it is more the norm than the exception and that it has been their standard practice for very many years.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/paradigm-reference-studio100-v3-loudspeaker-measurements

 

[Bear123]

those are from 2015 and are their home theater speakers- of which they believe the product is well suited.
The "audiophile" Persona models do much better.....

From Paradigm website, main description before you select the specific model within that lineup:
"When was the last time you heard music performed live? Live music is the ne plus ultra entertainment experience, and Prestige brings it home to you."
I don't see anything about home theater. Only music. Also: "PRESTIGE SERIES FROM PARADIGM - RESPECT FOR THE ORIGINAL SOURCE"

Again, to each their own. Companies can design speakers however they wish. But they are heavily advertising accuracy and high fidelity. I think this is a bit misleading coming from a company fully capable of designing neutral, accurate speakers. I recently made a speaker purchase that I wanted to last a good number of years. An important criteria for me was finding a well designed speaker with a smooth, accurate response. I considered Paradigm due to their "apparent" focus on these criteria. Glad I saw some objective data before pulling the trigger on one of their products.

 

[Beave]

While "do much better" is true, they still do terrible. Other than the extension, that's bad for a $200 speaker. The 5f is $17,000?

I see some exaggerated bass (beyond the usual in Stereophile measurements), plus some hot high treble, but only directly on-axis. Some people may like this sound signature, at least for a while in auditions. Others may not listen to them directly on axis and find them to be fine.

 

[Bear123]

Hmm, what can I say that reviewers didn't already say?

Did you see measurements of headphones? How about hd800s that Amit just reviewed recently? Praised by him. See https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/sennheiser-hd800s-review-headphone.18424/

Flat? Nope. Why people still buy hd800s? Food for thought.....

Well, not sure a design that needs heavy eq throughout most of the bandwidth to sound good is any kind of special accomplishment.....

Many people buy things because they are expensive and have good subjective reviews from "professional" review sites.......

 

[Pdxwayne]

Well, not sure a design that needs heavy eq throughout most of the bandwidth to sound good is any kind of special accomplishment.....

Many people buy things because they are expensive and have good subjective reviews from "professional" review sites.......

Subjectively, I don't use any eq and it sounds just fine.....

 

[Bear123]

Subjectively, I don't use any eq and it sounds just fine.....

Might for me as well, I'm not speaking from experience. You mentioned Amir praised them, but only after he applied significant eq, so just sharing a bit of a disclaimer on your statement that he praised them. In fairness, he did seem more impressed with these overall after eq than any other headphones. And it would seem that many(most?) headphone listeners have eq ability? I honestly don't know, as I don't sit at my desk listening to music, so I don't use headphones.

I do have a pair of Sony MD-7506 from many years ago that I have basically never used, but bought in case I ever needed to listen silently(for others). My teenage daughter has used them a lot...actually had to replace the cups on them and they still work perfectly. She has broken every other pair of cheap ear buds and headphones....many pairs.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Might for me as well, I'm not speaking from experience. You mentioned Amir praised them, but only after he applied significant eq, so just sharing a bit of a disclaimer on your statement that he praised them. In fairness, he did seem more impressed with these overall after eq than any other headphones. And it would seem that many(most?) headphone listeners have eq ability? I honestly don't know, as I don't sit at my desk listening to music, so I don't use headphones.

I do have a pair of Sony MD-7506 from many years ago that I have basically never used, but bought in case I ever needed to listen silently(for others). My teenage daughter has used them a lot...actually had to replace the cups on them and they still work perfectly. She has broken every other pair of cheap ear buds and headphones....many pairs.

Haha, I misunderstood you. I thought you talked about Paradigm Persona B. : )

I don't use eq either for my headphones, but mine is a much cheaper headphones that I seldom use.
; )

 

[witwald]

Plus [DeVore] was aiming the impedance/load characteristics [of the DeVore O/96] at people who like using tube amplification, as well as producing a sort of throw-back visual aesthetic. For the audience he was aiming (which included himself) he nailed it.

From the Stereophile measurements, the impedance characteristic of the DeVore O/96 has three impedance minima: 7.8 ohms at around 42 Hz, 7.2 ohms at around 195 Hz, and 7.9 ohms at around 8.2 kHz. The impedance peaks are significant, considerably exceeding 20 ohms in height in conjunction with the ported enclosure design, and also just a bit over 20 ohms at 1.6 kHz in the crossover region. In the sense that the impedance never falls below 7.8 ohms, yes, this loudspeaker might be regarded as being easy to drive, with much lower current demands than other loudspeakers with 6-ohm or even 4-ohm minima. It has a fairly high sensitivity, which is estimated to be 91dB(B-weighted)@2.83V/1m. Of course, that places lower power demands on the amplifier than do many other loudspeakers, helping the O/96 to be easy to drive. Those particular elements of the design do help to make it work reasonably well with tubed amplifiers, which are often low powered devices.

Unfortunately, tube amplifiers are generally characterised by having a low damping factor. This makes their frequency response extremely sensitive to the impedance variations posed by typical loudspeaker systems. The O/96 is relatively typical, albeit it has some very high peaks in the impedance. The wide range in the impedance values between the minima and maxima will lead to large variations in the frequency response curve, adding to the relatively large variations in the frequency response curve of the O/96. Whether those additional colourations/distortions are euphonic is in the ear of the listener who might like to use tube amplification with these speakers.

If a loudspeaker were being truly aimed at use with tube amplification, in the sense of maintaining a flat tube amplifier frequency response, then the aim would be for a flat resistive impedance load of moderate value. This would ensure much less interaction with any amplifier, let alone tube amplifiers that have well-known idiosyncrasies that serve only to colour the sound. As the O/96 does not have a flat resistive impedance curve, to say that it is somehow aimed at use with tube amplification doesn't seem to hold up under even a minimal degree of scrutiny.

 

[Sugarbubble]

Just wanted to say that I saw and heard Devore's new reference speakers at the 2019 Capital Audiofest in Rockville, Md. They were absolutely beautiful to see and sounded truly inspiring, as close to live music as I have heard from speakers. If i wasnt lazy i would find an image of them and post it in the most beautiful speaker thread. If you are even mildly interested in speaker porn, research them a bit. 70K is a lot of money, but you are buying something special. I would say worth it, but then again, you need a HUGE room, like a ballroom, to use these.

 

[witwald]

DeVore specifies that their O/Ref/A speakers have a 98dB sensitivity. That's very high, and with that there probably come quite a few trade-offs. Their sensitivity seems to be in the same territory as speakers destined for guitar amplifier cabinets. The ability of these loudspeakers to play very loud probably heavily influences the subjective listening experience (their wow! factor).

 

[jonfitch]

I used to own the Paradigm Signature S1v2, a very neutral speaker, although I think the v2 drivers had low SPL capabilities and the drivers had a habit of blowing, which they revised in v3. It's an interesting departure from company philosophy. Must be a new direction for management.

 

[MattHooper]

Just wanted to say that I saw and heard Devore's new reference speakers at the 2019 Capital Audiofest in Rockville, Md. They were absolutely beautiful to see and sounded truly inspiring, as close to live music as I have heard from speakers. If i wasnt lazy i would find an image of them and post it in the most beautiful speaker thread. If you are even mildly interested in speaker porn, research them a bit. 70K is a lot of money, but you are buying something special. I would say worth it, but then again, you need a HUGE room, like a ballroom, to use these.

The Devore O Reference is near top of my bucket list speakers to hear some day. Maybe at a show...

 

[Sal1950]

The Devore O Reference is near top of my bucket list speakers to hear some day. Maybe at a show...

I heard one or two at the last Tampa show, I was very impressed with their range and smoothness.

 

[MattHooper]

I heard one or two at the last Tampa show, I was very impressed with their range and smoothness.

Cool. Would love to have been at that Tamp show, for other stuff as well.

Boy I miss audio shows! I actually really enjoy them, checking out all the kooky and cool stuff.

 

[Sal1950]

Boy I miss audio shows! I actually really enjoy them, checking out all the kooky and cool stuff.

Me too. Getting a chance to see and hear a lot of stuff that I've only read about is a lot of fun plus getting a chance to talk to a lot of the developers can be enlightening. I'm really hoping in a year or so things will open up again, at least before I have to be pushed in a wheel chair.