Please help...Amplifier for hybrid speakers

[Skeeter235HT]

My first post on ASR, but I need solid answers from technically orientated responders, so this is likely the place. I have need to purchase a new amplifier because of many reasons, not the least of which is that my current one just died. I am trying to power Paradigm Founders 120h (with active onboard amplification for the bass regions), and have been using an Anthem product, but I am getting scared in my research reading about "Fully differential" amplifiers ( bridged construction?) connecting to speakers wanting to see a common ground on the negative speaker post. As I understand it, both - and + leads in this type of design are active, and there is no "common grounding" shared by the output. Forgive me, but I hope I am describing using the right terminology. The one amplifier I can point to which dramatically illustrates this is the new Schitt audio Wotan, which has a printed message on the chassis to "never ground the negative output" of the speaker connection. I have read about others, but since I was specifically considering this amp, it got me to thinking.

How do I know the speaker connections on the 120H are not somehow connected to ground through the onboard amplifier that plugs into a grounded wall outlet? Before eye rolling begins, let me state that I reached out to Paradigm about this and the answer was less than reassuring. To paraphrase, they told me they had no idea how the 120H would react to a "Fully differential" connection (i.e the Wotan speaker output) and I should consider an amplifier from a sister company like Anthem, Bryston or Emotiva. I guess that figures in the race for consumer dollars, but does not help me one bit. Additionally, in another forum, an Emotiva representative clearly stated that some of their products should NEVER be connected to semi-powered speakers expecting to see a common ground on the negative terminal (See Here) unless they specifically state they can be.

I really need a new amp to get back to hearing some music. I would consider Bryston or another Anthem if there was some knowledge to support the "Sister Company" comment. All I want to know is if there is a danger in connecting an amp, like the Wotan, to a hybrid powered speaker. Paradigm cannot tell me. The SchittTalker AI on the Schitt website tells me there "Might be" a problem. If there is a problem; what topology, design theory, class or brands should I be pursuing and are there any of the same to avoid?

Thanks in advance of any explanations.

 

[RayDunzl]

How do I know the speaker connections on the 120H are not somehow connected to ground through the onboard amplifier that plugs into a grounded wall outlet?

I would doubt the negative speaker terminal on the speaker is ground, since that would instantly fry any conventional amplifier accidentally connected with reverse polarity.

But, sometimes manufacturers aren't as smart as you would hope.

 

[RayDunzl]

As for using an amplifier with differential outputs, I can't think of a good reason to do so when you have the choice not to and are unsure of the results.

SENSITIVITY ROOM / ANECHOIC 95 dB / 92 dB

The sensitivity of the speaker is high, so a particularly powerful amplifier is not required.

SUITABLE AMPLIFIER POWER RANGE 15 - 400 watts
MAXIMUM INPUT POWER† 300 watts
IMPEDANCE Compatible with 8 ohms

A few watts should drive them quite loudly.

If I had them here, I'd hook up my old Acurus A-250 and be done.

And leave the Krells (with the differential ouputs) connected to the MartinLogans, which do have a power plug, not for amplification but only to charge the mylar panel to a couple of thousand volts.

 

[Sokel]

I have a similar configuration and I now run it with an icepower 1200as at each lows which strongly warns about connecting outputs to ground,as it's a full bridged one.

If all your amp sees is the driver alone you're perfectly good to go.
I'll say it again,ONLY the driver,nothing else.

 

[antcollinet]

How do I know the speaker connections on the 120H are not somehow connected to ground through the onboard amplifier that plugs into a grounded wall outlet?

It' a good question.

As far as I can see there are no separate speaker terminals for the internal amplifier - so it is somehow taking signal directly from the external amp speaker connections. Is this correct?

Do you have a multimeter with a resistance setting. Can you measure resistance from the speaker terminals to the ground pin of the mains connector (no power applied)

 

[Skeeter235HT]

The speaker is taking power from an external amp through line level inputs and somehow passing the sub 300hz to the internal 1000w amp. I do have a multimeter and can measure the resistance as you asked. Just not right away today.

As for using an amplifier with differential outputs, I can't think of a good reason to do so when you have the choice not to and are unsure of the results.

SENSITIVITY ROOM / ANECHOIC 95 dB / 92 dB

The sensitivity of the speaker is high, so a particularly powerful amplifier is not required.

SUITABLE AMPLIFIER POWER RANGE 15 - 400 watts
MAXIMUM INPUT POWER† 300 watts
IMPEDANCE Compatible with 8 ohms

A few watts should drive them quite loudly.

View attachment 430616


If I had them here, I'd hook up my old Acurus A-250 and be done.

And leave the Krells (with the differential ouputs) connected to the MartinLogans, which do have a power plug, not for amplification but only to charge the mylar panel to a couple of thousand volts.

I have read some measurements that indicate they can have a somewhat difficult impedance dip to around 3ohm and a phase shift around 600 hz if I remember. Also, testing reveals the efficiency is more like 90 dB. Forgive me if I appear like I don’t know what I’m talking about…I really don’t. All I know is that I play loud, and in a large space. And yes, with 200wpc, they go quite loud, and I don’t want to rule out some amps if I don’t have to.

 

[Skeeter235HT]

I have a similar configuration and I now run it with an icepower 1200as at each lows which strongly warns about connecting outputs to ground,as it's a full bridged one.

If all your amp sees is the driver alone you're perfectly good to go.
I'll say it again,ONLY the driver,nothing else.

Since the line level input terminals send the signal (below 300 hz) to the internal icepower, and the rest of the external amplification to the midrange and tweeter, incorporating ARC room correction along the way; I find it almost impossible the amplifier is seeing ONLY the drivers. Hence the reach out to Paradigm, and the resulting frustration. In that unwieldy chain how can I eliminate the possibility of a ground along the way.

 

[JustJones]

The reviewer at Stereophile ran them with a Krell FPB200c that's a differential design. Also used a Peachtree 300 and tube amp.

Paradigm Founder 120H loudspeaker Page 2

As for the woofers, the H in 120H stands for hybrid. Sure enough, the six CarbonX bass driversthree per towerare driven by built-in ICEpower class-D amps that put out 1000W continuous and up to 2000W on dynamic peaks. (Of course, that means you must plug the speakers into a nearby electrical...

www.stereophile.com

 

[Sokel]

Since the line level input terminals send the signal (below 300 hz) to the internal icepower, and the rest of the external amplification to the midrange and tweeter, incorporating ARC room correction along the way; I find it almost impossible the amplifier is seeing ONLY the drivers. Hence the reach out to Paradigm, and the resulting frustration. In that unwieldy chain how can I eliminate the possibility of a ground along the way.

Had a look at its connections and I can't understand them.
Were are the line level inputs?I only see speaker binding posts,and on top of that these are bridged so I assume its only the mid's and tweeter's going from there to their x-over.
It should be some level line input so to make active.If the external amp is working full-range only for the mid-high part and then converts the speaker line to level line so to go low I don't see the point.

 

[JustJones]

They don't have line inputs only high level inputs. It's not much different than using high level like on some Rel subwoofers other than the signal goes through DSP in the crossover. You have to join them through Anthems ARC as right/left.

 

[Skeeter235HT]

They don't have line inputs only high level inputs. It's not much different than using high level like on some Rel subwoofers other than the signal goes through DSP in the crossover. You have to join them through Anthems ARC as right/left.

This is quickly surpassing my knowledge. I will only say that the set of four speaker binding posts are default jumpered. The Paradigm manual says the speakers can be bi/amped bi/wired as per normal procedures.

 

[Skeeter235HT]

My bad on the above posts. I now know that line level is not speaker level. There is amplification level inputs to the jumpered speaker inputs.

The reviewer at Stereophile ran them with a Krell FPB200c that's a differential design. Also used a Peachtree 300 and tube amp.

Paradigm Founder 120H loudspeaker Page 2

As for the woofers, the H in 120H stands for hybrid. Sure enough, the six CarbonX bass driversthree per towerare driven by built-in ICEpower class-D amps that put out 1000W continuous and up to 2000W on dynamic peaks. (Of course, that means you must plug the speakers into a nearby electrical...

www.stereophile.com

OMG! I had forgotten I read that review before purchase. I guess real world anecdotal evidence of not having a nuclear meltdown using a differential output is probably enough, and negates the entirety of this thread. So sorry for wasting time.
Amp

 

[antcollinet]

Had a look at its connections and I can't understand them.
Were are the line level inputs?I only see speaker binding posts,and on top of that these are bridged so I assume its only the mid's and tweeter's going from there to their x-over.
It should be some level line input so to make active.If the external amp is working full-range only for the mid-high part and then converts the speaker line to level line so to go low I don't see the point.

Its just alike a sub that can take high level inputs. It will have high level to line level conversion to go into the amp for the bass drivers.

How this is done will determine the impact of using a differential (BTL) amp. Many subs can only use 1 speaker terminal with such amps (with the black terminal needing to be connected to earth vai another router). I would hope with this speaker, that (since it will not be possible to do that) it implements a balanced High level to line level conversion (eg transformer, or balanced op amp type circuit)

I am assuming that hybrid here means traditional speaker with built in active sub.

 

[Sokel]

Its just alike a sub that can take high level inputs. It will have high level to line level conversion to go into the amp for the bass drivers.

How this is done will determine the impact of using a differential (BTL) amp. Many subs can only use 1 speaker terminal with such amps (with the black terminal needing to be connected to earth vai another router). I would hope with this speaker, that (since it will not be possible to do that) it implements a balanced High level to line level conversion (eg transformer, or balanced op amp type circuit)

I am assuming that hybrid here means traditional speaker with built in active sub.

That's what I thought too.
And is such a waste of amp power as the external one will still have to send full range.
They could have done a lot better with an external x-over or with some kind of loop to save the mid-high amp from lows.

 

[JustJones]

Martin Logan which uses Anthems ARC does something similar with their hybrid Impression speakers. I have no idea if Paradigm 120H is done exactly this way but here's a photo of ML high level input. I think PML Sound owns all these companies Anthem, Paradigm and Martin Logan.

 

[JustJones]

On the 120H you can remove the binding on the speaker posts so you can do the bi amp thing. Top posts are highs and bottom are mid/low. The manual says the crossovers are analog/digital ?

 

[Hear Here]

I have hybrid speakers (Avantgarde Duo XD) that offer connection for the bass section either from the speaker level output from the amp, or from a low level from the preamp. How do your speakers work? Do they offer the option of low-level from the preamp?

I have Class D amps and it is generally this type that warns against earthing the - terminal. It has never been a problem, as I use the speaker output level to the entire speaker system (the recommended way by Avantgarde) so there is not danger to the amp or speakers. If you add subs to the system, that's when you need to be careful.