New 2.2 channel listening room advice.

[Swinesight 20/20]

• Hello all!
  Wife and I are a year and a half into the empty nesting period. All 3 kids out of here.
  Found ASR through some comments on Erin's audio corner earlier this year. Wow, what a find!
  I have read a ton of threads, learned a lot - forgot more and need some guidance to avoid stupid newb mistakes.
  
  We have been deconstructing our children’s music room to create a 2.2 channel listening room.
  
  Room is octagon shaped (See diagram attachment below) Center listening position from speakers approximately 10 ft ( ~ 3 meters). Our usual listening level is 55–80 db unless we are drinking
  
  Current situation: ( start up scenario since ~ January)
  Analog
  - Audio Technica ATLP 60 XBT ( Impulse purchase from Best Buy... will need to upgrade)
  - Project phono Box S2 ( Borrowed from a friend )
  - Sony TA – A1 ES ( Bought from local AV dealer, they had 4 left and were looking to move so... )
  - Paradigm Prestige 15B ( Bought from local AV dealer, they had pair and were looking to move so...)
  - KEF R3 Meta ( recent open box purchase my Son found for ~1500/pair. Will be replacing Paradigms )
  
  Digital/Streamimg
  - Wiim pro plus
  - Sony TA – A1 ES
  - Paradigm Prestige 15B
  - KEF R3 Meta
  
  Control: iPad via WiiM app streaming Qobuz and Spotify connect. Works perfectly.
  
  Genres: all but metal and classical.
  
  Goals:
  1. Hi Res, digital streaming via ethernet connection. Qobuz , Tidal, Spotify connect*
  2. Live stream/on demand concerts via HDMI eArc.
  3. Vinyl
  4. CDs
  (50%, 30%, 10%, 10% respectively)
  
  Plan:
  1. TV - HDMI eArc - Integrated Amp - balanced or unbalanced - KEF R3M and Dual Subs
  2. Network/Ethernet - Integrated Amp - balance or unbalanced - KEF R3M and Dual subs
  3. Record player - Integrated Amp MM Phono stage - balanced or unbalanced - KEF R3M and Dual subs
  4. CD player - coaxial/optical - Integrated Amp - balanced or unbalanced - KEF R3M and Dual subs
  5. Protection: ??
  
  Current thoughts:
  
  Speakers: KEF R3 Metas ( Recent purchase )
  Dual Subs: ReL T7x or T9x ( Caught up in hype ? )
  Record Player: Pro-Ject Automat A2 ( Local dealer and Thinking easy for wife and her friends )
  CD player: ARCAM CD5? ( Local dealer can get )
  Integrated Amp: ARCAM SA 45? ( Local dealer can get ~ January we think ) Meets all criteria.
  Protection: SurgeX ( Axess ELITE or Defender series ) vs AudioQuest PowerQuest 505 or 707 ??
  Cables: no clue as of yet, definitely need help here
  
  Additional Questions:
  1. Unbalanced vs Balanced in what situation here? Pros/Cons?
  2. Other options for Integrated Amp with: Criteria below
  • High-Res Streaming with Ethernet line connection
  • Class AB, D or G with ~100-120W
  • Balanced analogue and digital audio ( if truly makes a noticeable difference )
  • MM Phono stage
  • HDMI eARC input
  • Dual Subwoofer outputs with Dirac Live Room Correction
  • Supports up to 24 bit / 192 kHz Hi-res audio
  • Supports Qobuz, Spotify Connect and Tidal Connect
  
  
  Budget for Subs, Record player ,CD player, Amp, protection and cables ~ 13K US
  
  We like the idea of an Integrated approach vs separates in regards to the Amp, streamer, phono stage etc...along with local dealer availability for warranty involvement as we have a long and healthy history with them.
  We however are open to any education/recommendations, ideas, configurations, component options etc…We are still at the Novice + stage in our overall understanding of this new rabbit hole. Excited but apprehensive and thankful we found this site.
  
  Thank you in advance for any engagement in our endeavor.
  
  Chris and Kim
  
  ==========================================================
  
  Subs: https://rel.net/shop/powered-subwoofers/serie-tx/t-7x/

  Record Player: https://www.project-audio.com/en/product/a2/

  CD Player: https://www.arcam.co.uk/product,radia,players,cd5.htm

  Integrated Amp: https://www.arcam.co.uk/product,radia,integrated-amplifiers,sa45.htm
  
  Room: see attachment

 

[NTK]

Welcome to ASR. (I do notice that you signed up as a member in March but this is your first post.)

Goals:
1. Hi Res, digital streaming via ethernet connection. Qobuz , Tidal, Spotify connect*
2. Live stream/on demand concerts via HDMI eArc.
3. Vinyl
4. CDs
(50%, 30%, 10%, 10% respectively)

Plan:
1. TV - HDMI eArc - Integrated Amp - balanced or unbalanced - KEF R3M and Dual Subs
2. Network/Ethernet - Integrated Amp - balance or unbalanced - KEF R3M and Dual subs
3. Record player - Integrated Amp MM Phono stage - balanced or unbalanced - KEF R3M and Dual subs
4. CD player - coaxial/optical - Integrated Amp - balanced or unbalanced - KEF R3M and Dual subs
5. Protection: ??

Current thoughts:

Speakers: KEF R3 Metas ( Recent purchase )
Dual Subs: ReL T7x or T9x ( Caught up in hype ? )
Record Player: Pro-Ject Automat A2 ( Local dealer and Thinking easy for wife and her friends )
CD player: ARCAM CD5? ( Local dealer can get )
Integrated Amp: ARCAM SA 45? ( Local dealer can get ~ January we think ) Meets all criteria.
Protection: SurgeX ( Axess ELITE or Defender series ) vs AudioQuest PowerQuest 505 or 707 ??
Cables: no clue as of yet, definitely need help here

Rel is considered an underachiever in this forum. There are much better performing subs for much less money. Rythmik, SVS, Hsu Research are popular choices here (and there are many other good ones too) if your are in the US. Member @sweetchaos has compiled a very comprehensive subwoofers comparison spreadsheet.

Subwoofer Comparison

I've created a *slightly large* subwoofer comparison spreadsheet. :D Info: -==Link to my Subwoofer Comparison spreadsheet ==- https://bit.ly/SubwooferComparison

www.audiosciencereview.com

For the amplifier, I'd suggest checking out the latest NAD M10. It doesn't have balanced analog connections, no MC phono input, but costs about half the Arcam SA 45. I also have better faith in NAD's speaker amplifier (Hypex NC252MP based, here is a link to member SIY's review of the M10 v1 at AudioXpress which IMHO is a little more up-to-date than the one here) than the one in the SA-45.

For the CD player, I'd recommend using digital connections (optical or coax) rather than analog.

For power protection, there is no need to go overboard. They are only for protection against incoming AC power line surges and they do nothing for audio quality. If possible, installing a whole house SPD (surge protection device) at the house AC service entrance is the best (see post from our host).

You also don't need to go overboard on cables too. Amazon Basics are all you need if all you care is audio performance. If you want better or more robust build quality, consider Blue Jeans Cables, Mogami or Canare (usually available at pro-audio/musician stores), or Worlds Best Cables (available at Amazon).

Additional Questions:
1. Unbalanced vs Balanced in what situation here? Pros/Cons?
2. Other options for Integrated Amp with: Criteria below
• High-Res Streaming with Ethernet line connection
• Class AB, D or G with ~100-120W
• Balanced analogue and digital audio ( if truly makes a noticeable difference )
• MM Phono stage
• HDMI eARC input
• Dual Subwoofer outputs with Dirac Live Room Correction
• Supports up to 24 bit / 192 kHz Hi-res audio
• Supports Qobuz, Spotify Connect and Tidal Connect

Balanced connections solve the problem of ground loops. However, if your setup is not afflicted with ground loops, unbalanced will give the same audio quality.

[Edit]

Budget for Subs, Record player ,CD player, Amp, protection and cables ~ 13K US

I am pretty sure you can get what you want for less than 1/2 your budget

 

[Mr. Widget]

I think @NTK is giving sound advice. I am curious about room placement in your rather unusual room shape.
Where will you be sitting and where do the speakers go?

 

[dualazmak]

I too use SONY TA-A1ES, a nice quasi-Class-A integrated amp which is now dedicatedly and directly driving my tweeters, as one of the four "integrated amps" in my multichannel audio system.

So, just for your possible interest...
My PC-DSP-based ("EKIO" as system-wide DSP center) multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active audio setup using OKTO DAC8PRO 8-Ch DAC would be somewhat (more or less) of your reference, I assume. You would please find the latest system setup here on my project thread; the system includes HDMI to TV, live play/listening to TT-vinyl, of course CD/DVD/BL if needed.

 

[Swinesight 20/20]

Welcome to ASR. (I do notice that you signed up as a member in March but this is your first post.)



Rel is considered an underachiever in this forum. There are much better performing subs for much less money. Rythmik, SVS, Hsu Research are popular choices here (and there are many other good ones too) if your are in the US. Member @sweetchaos has compiled a very comprehensive subwoofers comparison spreadsheet.

Subwoofer Comparison

I've created a *slightly large* subwoofer comparison spreadsheet. :D Info: -==Link to my Subwoofer Comparison spreadsheet ==- https://bit.ly/SubwooferComparison

www.audiosciencereview.com

For the amplifier, I'd suggest checking out the latest NAD M10. It doesn't have balanced analog connections, no MC phono input, but costs about half the Arcam SA 45. I also have better faith in NAD's speaker amplifier (Hypex NC252MP based, here is a link to member SIY's review of the M10 v1 at AudioXpress which IMHO is a little more up-to-date than the one here) than the one in the SA-45.

For the CD player, I'd recommend using digital connections (optical or coax) rather than analog.

For power protection, there is no need to go overboard. They are only for protection against incoming AC power line surges and they do nothing for audio quality. If possible, installing a whole house SPD (surge protection device) at the house AC service entrance is the best (see post from our host).

You also don't need to go overboard on cables too. Amazon Basics are all you need if all you care is audio performance. If you want better or more robust build quality, consider Blue Jeans Cables, Mogami or Canare (usually available at pro-audio/musician stores), or Worlds Best Cables (available at Amazon).


Balanced connections solve the problem of ground loops. However, if your setup is not afflicted with ground loops, unbalanced will give the same audio quality.

[Edit]

I am pretty sure you can get what you want for less than 1/2 your budget

Yes, signed up in March and I've been reading regularly since that time. Sheer mass of knowledge here was enlightening. I honestly didn't have much to add to any thread lol.

Thank you for your honesty with Rel. I have definitely heard of and looked at SVS ( wife prefers the look of SVS ). Will check the others out as well. It's amazing after all I have read in the last year or so I had not even heard of or recognize the other two. Clearly I have so much to learn. Also I have seen sweetchaos' subwoofer spreadsheet, it's time to take a deeper dive there.

Will review NAD M10 V3, looks fantastic. I remember when the M 66 came out... I thought it was perfect until I realized it was only a preamp .
Hypex consistently on different threads seems to be superior. How does one know an amplifier is using Hypex? I hope that isn't a ridiculous question.

Got it on the power protection. I will check with an electrician re: house SPD. Mainly otherwise I plan to use the in room "SPD " to keep things tidy.
Definitely will avoid the expensive ones and No power conditioners. After reading multiple threads here, I recognize those to be fool's gold thank you for reiterating.

I'll update cable selections as I get closer. Thanks for the direction there. Certainly can throw $$$ out the window with cable lore.

In regards to a ground loop, we've been listening in that room prior to construction with my above system. I didn't notice any untoward, noise, hums, etc. so hopefully I'm not afflicted with that making balanced unnecessary... If I'm understanding you correctly.

And by the way, my wife saw your last sentence, so now I'm screwed )

Thanks again NTK, really appreciate your time and expertise.

 

[Swinesight 20/20]

I think @NTK is giving sound advice. I am curious about room placement in your rather unusual room shape.
Where will you be sitting and where do the speakers go?

Thank you for asking, the attachment below is an updated lighting diagram. It is rotated, clockwise 90° from the original attachment in my OP. The numbers reflect our ceiling lighting scheme, however, the speakers will be roughly below the position of the two number 5s anticipating dual subs somewhere near them. Sitting position is noted with the chairs now. During critical listening, I will move my chair into the listening position where the cocktail table is. Wife will desire to always stay by the linear fireplace to her left. TV and components will be to the far right of the number 7 in the recess.. straight ahead of the sitting position. The area under number 6 is the arched entry to the room. Unfortunately, placing a sitting space in that area wasn't an option. Would've likely been the best for symmetry however.
Hope that helps, look forward to your thoughts.

 

[Swinesight 20/20]

I too use SONY TA-A1ES, a nice quasi-Class-A integrated amp which is now dedicatedly and directly driving my tweeters, as one of the four "integrated amps" in my multichannel audio system.

So, just for your possible interest...
My PC-DSP-based ("EKIO" as system-wide DSP center) multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active audio setup using OKTO DAC8PRO 8-Ch DAC would be somewhat (more or less) of your reference, I assume. You would please find the latest system setup here on my project thread; the system includes HDMI to TV, live play/listening to TT-vinyl, of course CD/DVD/BL if needed.

Yes, the Sony sounds fantastic just lacks a little bit of power. I truly worry how much class A affect I'm appreciating ( if any ) and could I be downgrading moving towards class D, G etc.. Damn this Audiophile rabbit hole!!
It's the only amp I have used for listening since we started this process approximately one year ago. Initially with the record player above only Bluetoothing to an UE boom playing Tame Impala ( our Son's vinyl ) ...our only Vinyl record at the time if you can believe it!! LOL
We were hooked.

I will check out your set up project thread, but I'll say ... I'm a bit scared to start lol.

thank you!

 

[Mr. Widget]

Thank you for asking, the attachment below is an updated lighting diagram. It is rotated, clockwise 90° from the original attachment in my OP. The numbers reflect our ceiling lighting scheme, however, the speakers will be roughly below the position of the two number 5s anticipating dual subs somewhere near them. Sitting position is noted with the chairs now. During critical listening, I will move my chair into the listening position where the cocktail table is. Wife will desire to always stay by the linear fireplace to her left. TV and components will be to the far right of the number 7 in the recess.. straight ahead of the sitting position. The area under number 6 is the arched entry to the room. Unfortunately, placing a sitting space in that area wasn't an option. Would've likely been the best for symmetry however.
Hope that helps, look forward to your thoughts.

I would move the speakers out a bit for a wider stance and also bring them forward away from the wall behind them. For critical listening I would bring the listening chair forward. This will give you a perfect equilateral triangle and should avoid room modes.

For subs, I would experiment before choosing and consider all room locations including one centered between the speakers and one behind the cocktail table.

 

[NTK]

Will review NAD M10 V3, looks fantastic. I remember when the M 66 came out... I thought it was perfect until I realized it was only a preamp .
Hypex consistently on different threads seems to be superior. How does one know an amplifier is using Hypex? I hope that isn't a ridiculous question.

It does require a bit of sleuthing. If you carefully read the fine prints, you can find NAD mentioning M10 V3 uses Hypex NCore technology. Some companies don't really want their customers to know they outsource critical components/subsystems in their products to outside parties.

Searching the web for pictures of its internals shows that it is indeed a Hypex NC252MP.

And by the way, my wife saw your last sentence, so now I'm screwed )

Oops. Next time I need to hide potentially sensitive info using "spoilers". Now you can't claim you don't have the funds for her new dining set

 

[dualazmak]

Yes, the Sony sounds fantastic just lacks a little bit of power. I truly worry how much class A affect I'm appreciating ( if any ) and could I be downgrading moving towards class D, G etc.. Damn this Audiophile rabbit hole!!

This is why I am now using quasi-Class-A SONY TA-A1ES only to dedicatedly drive high-efficient Be-dome-tweeters, and I also use YAMAHA A-S301 integrated amp to dedicatedly drive extremely-high-efficient FOSTEX T925A metal-horn super-tweeters.

My post here would be also of your reference and interest;
- Even Greg Timbers uses "reasonable and budget" Pioneer Elite A-20 for compression drivers (super tweeters) in his extraordinary expensive multichannel stereo system with JBL Everest DD67000 which he himself designed and developed: #435

 

[Swinesight 20/20]

I would move the speakers out a bit for a wider stance and also bring them forward away from the wall behind them. For critical listening I would bring the listening chair forward. This will give you a perfect equilateral triangle and should avoid room modes.

For subs, I would experiment before choosing and consider all room locations including one centered between the speakers and one behind the cocktail table.

View attachment 411143

Absolutely, will get more specific with measurements once closer. Before we deconstructed the room, we had the speakers 7'5" apart, 1'5" from front wall and each 9'0" from the listening position. For some reason 9 ft was better...probably a room affect. I'm hoping DIRAC will glean more info in that regard...esp with the subs.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Absolutely, will get more specific with measurements once closer. Before we deconstructed the room, we had the speakers 7'5" apart, 1'5" from front wall and each 9'0" from the listening position. For some reason 9 ft was better...probably a room affect. I'm hoping DIRAC will glean more info in that regard...esp with the subs.

Anecdotally and without any science to back it up, I have found an 8' to 10' equilateral triangle seems more often than not to be ideal in most domestic listening situations... even if the room is very large. Obviously in a small room that may not always be possible since getting close to room boundaries can negatively impact the playback in terms of bass response or control of early reflections.

 

[Swinesight 20/20]

It does require a bit of sleuthing. If you carefully read the fine prints, you can find NAD mentioning M10 V3 uses Hypex NCore technology. Some companies don't really want their customers to know they outsource critical components/subsystems in their products to outside parties.
View attachment 411158
Searching the web for pictures of its internals shows that it is indeed a Hypex NC252MP.

View attachment 411159



Oops. Next time I need to hide potentially sensitive info using "spoilers". Now you can't claim you don't have the funds for her new dining set

Excellent. Clearly I need to jump on the Hypex education train.

And you hit the nail on the head... she has been asking for a dinning table that can fit all of our family during the holidays. you opened that door wide open Hahaha.