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A Broad Discussion of Speakers with Major Audio Luminaries

Grade report is a compiled and concentrated measurement data, graded in relation to ITU recommendation.
I wasn't aware of that. Do you have a link, an anchor point?

Did you check the Griesinger powerpoint,
Seems I have to give it some time. I'll come back to it.

I'd argue that if people are not willing to experiment with stereo subs ... *I have 12" subs on stands on both side walls, not a living room friendly setup.
As said, using 4 subs once in a while made a difference, but I'm not willing to clutter my living room with them. Reiterated, I dismiss the idea of "AE" as preferrable anyway. I simply do not see the playback (casual stereo) like that.
 
I wasn't aware of that. Do you have a link, an anchor point?
You can download sample reports to see what kind of information and suggestions to problems it includes, although most of it is explained on that page.

As said, using 4 subs once in a while made a difference, but I'm not willing to clutter my living room with them. Reiterated, I dismiss the idea of "AE" as preferrable anyway. I simply do not see the playback (casual stereo) like that.
And that is completely acceptable preference, which I respect. Yet I encourage to experiment based on the provided knowledge, especially if the resources are already available so the only investment is time.
 
You can download sample reports to see what kind of information and suggestions to problems it includes, although most of it is explained on that page.
Thanks, my assumptions were confirmed. I cannot recognise any particular explanatory power in the GRADE report. Nor can I recognise a relationship to decorrelated bass.

And that is completely acceptable preference, which I respect. Yet I encourage to experiment based on the provided knowledge, especially if the resources are already available so the only investment is time.
I have taken the examples from Griesinger. I realise that decorrelated is around 4dB quieter. This applies to playback in the room with my loudspeakers, -3dB @ 20Hz stereo. I have not checked whether the files themselves already show differences, I leave that to the proponents of the new effect.

I can't hear any obvious qualitative difference, neither with the given files nor from Mr griesinger's presentation (exept for the overdrive).

I stand by my idea that the decorrelation helps to break the usual symmetry that is meticulously maintained to maximise the stereo effect. For example, less resonance excitation - just a guess. By the way, I find the fetish of stereo, especially in connection with concert halls, a bit strange, and decidedly don't follow this path. 'Stereo' is just an artistic/artificial tool to convey a meaning, not to be taken as virtual reality. The signal must be actively interpreted, it cannot be passively consumed. You put some effort in. Maybe the effect helps with accepting it for a while, giving some new focus in all day's test listening (again).
 
This to me is the best of your post I have seen so far.
While it is strange that a study about audibility only has three test persons, but nevertheless this is a result implying audible effects of GD in bass.
And I, too, would like to see group delay measurements in speaker reviews [Though can be seen in the step response to some degree.]. And more studies about audibility in different frequency ranges to settle the question.

But then
Quite many members liked your post so your selective objectivity has sprouted quite well in the community of like-minded people. Lack of perspective and underdevelopment may be good goals for this forum. That is okay, but you could be more open to criticism that objective content of reviews is not inclusive and adequate compared to possibilities in whole speaker industry.
There was nothing wrong with Amir's post, he took an article you put forward and gave some context (from exact thas article).
So why this attitude? Bad weather in Finland? Dissing as a sport? What is it?
 
Thanks, my assumptions were confirmed. I cannot recognise any particular explanatory power in the GRADE report. Nor can I recognise a relationship to decorrelated bass.
Please read the sources that were provided, which you requested. And you even linked in post #622 that contains key information regarding this part of the conversation, especially paragraphs 2-3 under Temporal response.
 
1" thick lead enclosures should pretty much negate any audible resonances. Of course, a 300 lb standmount speaker may manifest other issues :)
BCO.02cd314d-5f6e-408a-b551-7998b21248be.png
 
Please read the sources that were provided, which you requested. And you even linked in post #622 that contains key information regarding this part of the conversation, especially paragraphs 2-3 under Temporal response.
O/k, you must think of me as an amateur. I'm not quite. My orginal, not spoken out question was, what defines 'late' in the plots of the GRADE, because it isn't told in the linked presentation post #622. Now that the meaning is clarified, my own measurents come to my mind - I'm a tinkerer. They have it all, using different methods, two microphones etc, not just REW. If I would call it 'temporal' I don't know.

Anyway, the relation to spatial bass is still to be found - for me. I acknowledge the 'pattern' thing, a misnomer in my book, but never mind. But if the plots of the GRADE show it? What may help is a halfway compact theoretical statement on "AE" that I was willing to prove right away for the fun of it! Tell me how to (dis)prove the explanation! As said, when listening to the examples I wasn't impressed (they are not at equal level, right?).

1" thick lead enclosures should pretty much negate any audible resonances. Of course, a 300 lb standmount speaker may manifest other issues :)
Don't forget the flimsy cones letting internal resonances escape.
 
I can't hear any obvious qualitative difference, neither with the given files nor from Mr griesinger's presentation (exept for the overdrive).

Can you describe how you have your subwoofers connected and set up in your room?

I'm surprised if you can't hear any "qualitative" spatial differences between David Griesinger's 100Hz low-pass noise decorrelated test signal, compared to the 100Hz low-pass noise mono test signal. Can't you hear that the mono sound stays in front of you in the space between the two loudspeakers, while the decorrelated sound surrounds you and has an enveloping sensation?
 
O/k, you must think of me as an amateur.
My only assumption is that you didn't read the referenced material, which provides quite a bit of information about the questions you have been asking:
-David Griesinger powerpoint from Vancouver ASA
-Relevance of Early vs. late sound graph for analyzing whether speakers in a room are able to reproduce low frequency spatial information and how accurately.

As said, when listening to the examples I wasn't impressed (they are not at equal level, right?).
This is directly connected to the references above. Is you room able to reproduce the effect, prerequisitions, which are related to room modes and speaker and listening position placement relative to those, are explained in the Griesinger presentation.

My only intent in these conversations is to gather and if possible, spread knowledge.
Now, back to basement building multiple entry horns ->
 
My only assumption is that you didn't read the referenced material, which provides quite a bit of information about the questions you have been asking:
-David Griesinger powerpoint from Vancouver ASA
-Relevance of Early vs. late sound graph for analyzing whether speakers in a room are able to reproduce low frequency spatial information and how accurately.


This is directly connected to the references above. Is you room able to reproduce the effect, prerequisitions, which are related to room modes and speaker and listening position placement relative to those, are explained in the Griesinger presentation.

My only intent in these conversations is to gather and if possible, spread knowledge.
Now, back to basement building multiple entry horns ->
Yep, pressure gradient etc, patterns, binaural beats, I read it. But that makes no theory that can be (dis)proven. I've got two qualified microphones, DSP and a little bit of time. I think, there should be a clear (and somehow compact) agreed-on statement on what physical sensation makes what sensoric impression. Griesinger's conjecture is around for longer now. Let's give it a measure. What shall I look for?

We could leave it as it is with the GRADE, I'm not convinced but also won't come after anybody. Or, I post some basic GRADE of my room, if you like.

I'm surprised if you can't hear any "qualitative" spatial differences between David Griesinger's 100Hz low-pass noise decorrelated test signal, compared to the 100Hz low-pass noise mono test signal.
But if it is so? I measured a difference, but that was just a lack of ~4dB in-room with the decorrelated input. Is it in the files, or an effect of the room? Did you measure something similar?
 
But if it is so? I measured a difference, but that was just a lack of ~4dB in-room with the decorrelated input. Is it in the files, or an effect of the room? Did you measure something similar?

I measured it now with a simple dB meter in my phone, and the mono test signal was only 0.8 dB louder than the decorrelated test signal in my in-room measurement.

As can be seen below, the two test files share the same integrated loudness of -20.8 LUFS, and the rest of the numbers match each other quite well without any large deviations. The decorrelated file is the first one, and the second one is the mono file.

1750788582619.png

1750788639739.png
 
I measured it now with a simple dB meter in my phone, and the mono test signal was only 0.8 dB louder ...
That won't debunk my suspicion, that the room is the culprit, or that decorrelation just mitigates its impact respectively (just kidding ;-)
Only as a 'proof of work' my preliminary results (still don't hear something I would invest in):

diff.jpg

Difference in spectrum mono vs decorrelated when played in room, mono is louder by ~4dB. Also watch the swing +/-3dB. Data is significant from 40Hz to ~130Hz (car traffic). Played several minutes to suppress noise, will need cross-check with several runs, at nicht, at higher volumes.

But, please, hand me over a theoretical model.
 
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Played several minutes to suppress noise, will need cross-check with several runs, at nicht, at higher volumes.

But, please, hand me over a theoretical model.
Case nearly closed for the first part. Audacity spectrum shows, that mono is exactly 3dB louder in the file. But the swing +/-3dB in the difference is confirmed, it's not just noise. I wonder why this wasn't seen before. I leave it to you. My amateurish contribution wouldn't settle the case as a whole easily.
 
1" thick lead enclosures should pretty much negate any audible resonances. Of course, a 300 lb standmount speaker may manifest other issues :)
View attachment 459375

Just needs a beryllium tweeter and then you have a speaker that will likely cause your death if you attempt to eat, lick or lift
 
My only assumption is that you didn't read the referenced material, ...
I give up! Despite many questions, well based on the published material, it is not clear what it all is about. No answers.

How, step by step, would a recording taken with a meter wide microphone array translate to a listening experience in a person's home, but only if the (sub)bass speaker are (a) stereo or (b) (four) placed in a special way? Would it even be desirable?

How, step by step, is the reverberation time at home in (sub)bass connected to the sensation of 'patterns' originating in a concert hall's reverberation?

What might be a set of measurements that (dis)proves the effect?

Minor: the given testfiles are flawed.

Very minor: for cross check, if a direct perception of 'room' (wording taken from Griesinger's / Genelec's conjecture) is not the case, is the difference in perception explained by an altered room response due to phasing?

I refrain from being the single only one to invest time and thinking (?) into this topic.
 
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I give up! Despite many questions, well based on the published material, it is not clear what it all is about. No answers.
Many of your questions seem to be answered (to an extent) by the published material, although perhaps not to a satisfactory standard of evidence. Good studies are lacking, probably in part because of decades-old assumptions—based on limited data—about the audibility of bass spatiality in small rooms. As far as I'm aware, the audibility of the effect is not disputed in large spaces such as concert halls or in free space.

How, step by step, would a recording taken with a meter wide microphone array translate to a listening experience in a person's home, but only if the (sub)bass speaker are (a) stereo or (b) (four) placed in a special way?
In a good concert hall, sufficiently widely spaced microphones yield substantially uncorrelated signals in the subwoofer range. If the recorded signals are then reproduced by independent drivers, it is theoretically possible to produce interaural amplitude and phase fluctuations similar to that which would occur in the hall. If the bass is summed to mono, this possibility is lost.

How, step by step, is the reverberation time at home in (sub)bass connected to the sensation of 'patterns' originating in a concert hall's reverberation?
The "reverberation time" (really a misnomer in small rooms) is related to how well damped the room modes are. As the damping increases, the direct sound becomes more dominant. As the direct sound becomes more dominant, interaural amplitude and phase become less dependent on the modal behavior of the room and thus more dependent on the interchannel amplitude and phase in the stimulus.

What might be a set of measurements that (dis)proves the effect?
One could do binaural measurements in the playback space (using in-ear microphones, a head and torso simulator, etc.), though accurately relating these measurements to perception isn't so trivial. The interaural cross-correlation coefficient is quite high at low frequencies due to head dimensions, but the human hearing apparatus is quite good at detecting interaural time differences. Griesinger proposed a measure that he dubbed the diffuse field transfer function, which is described in some detail in this paper.
 
Many of your questions seem to be answered (to an extent) by the published material, although perhaps not to a satisfactory standard of evidence.
Thanks for the response. I argue, that Dr Griesinger has access to means to support his conjecture with some evidence. Same, or even more so this applies to Genelec. To tell old yet evidence based knowledge an assumption, is a stark statement. I keep it in critical observation.
 
Many of your questions seem to be answered (to an extent) by the published material, although perhaps not to a satisfactory standard of evidence. Good studies are lacking, probably in part because of decades-old assumptions—based on limited data—about the audibility of bass spatiality in small rooms. As far as I'm aware, the audibility of the effect is not disputed in large spaces such as concert halls or in free space.


In a good concert hall, sufficiently widely spaced microphones yield substantially uncorrelated signals in the subwoofer range. If the recorded signals are then reproduced by independent drivers, it is theoretically possible to produce interaural amplitude and phase fluctuations similar to that which would occur in the hall. If the bass is summed to mono, this possibility is lost.


The "reverberation time" (really a misnomer in small rooms) is related to how well damped the room modes are. As the damping increases, the direct sound becomes more dominant. As the direct sound becomes more dominant, interaural amplitude and phase become less dependent on the modal behavior of the room and thus more dependent on the interchannel amplitude and phase in the stimulus.


One could do binaural measurements in the playback space (using in-ear microphones, a head and torso simulator, etc.), though accurately relating these measurements to perception isn't so trivial. The interaural cross-correlation coefficient is quite high at low frequencies due to head dimensions, but the human hearing apparatus is quite good at detecting interaural time differences. Griesinger proposed a measure that he dubbed the diffuse field transfer function, which is described in some detail in this paper.
Thanks for putting together a cogent answer to the specific questions raised.

However it is in your above answer to the reverberation time question, repeated below, that I think the issues get a bit difficult: –
…How, step by step, is the reverberation time at home in (sub)bass connected to the sensation of 'patterns' originating in a concert hall's reverberation?
…The "reverberation time" (really a misnomer in small rooms) is related to how well damped the room modes are. As the damping increases, the direct sound becomes more dominant. As the direct sound becomes more dominant, interaural amplitude and phase become less dependent on the modal behavior of the room and thus more dependent on the interchannel amplitude and phase in the stimulus.
Firstly, at long wavelengths the behaviour of the room and the speakers is not comprised of direct sound plus room modes. Even if you remove the room modes, the listener experience is still the sum of speakers plus room, it is not just direct sound from the speakers. The sound waves are still hitting the listener from all directions.

Secondly, the principal means of removing the room modes is to equalise at the listening area. The most effective way to achieve this is to use multiple mono subwoofers placed in optimised locations with optimised amplitude and delays. Nobody is going to achieve sub-bass damping of the room modes in a domestic living space by literally adding damping to the walls of the room. All of these examples being provided and reports of hearing the benefits of decorrelated bass, are occurring using stereo speakers without equalisation, so the room modes are in full play during these demonstrations. Your suggestion of damping the room modes is in reality best done by reverting to multiple mono subwoofers, and your suggestion that this step will enhance ability to perceive the decorrelated bass of two separate bass channels is a conundrum and somewhat ironic.

So, when we add the following factors together ....

- the observations of audible enhancements from casual home experiments are from sighted listening reports;
- the SPL at the listener's ear in these home tests is probably different, and would need to be matched to control for the risk of that variable being the reason for an observed difference instead of AE;
- the frequency response at the listener's ear in these home tests is probably different, and would need to be matched to control for the risk of that variable being the reason for an observed difference instead of AE;
- with the mono sub-bass implementation, there is plenty of decorrelated bass being delivered into the room (if not so certainly to the listener's ear) above 80 Hz, and indeed to some extent below 80 to perhaps 60 Hz, and all the AE effect that it can deliver, but it is coming from the main speakers;
- a multiple subwoofer mono sub-bass solution with MSO delivers much smoother bass frequencies than decorrelated so-called 'stereo' bass and this smoothness has been proven in multiple independent controlled trials to be of high significance for the listener's pleasure evaluation, in stark contrast to the absence of controlled trials in domestic playback conditions demonstrating not just detection, but also preference and high significance, of the presence of AE specifically below 80, or maybe 70 or even 60, Hz;

.... the most rational conclusion from the current discussion seems to be that the certain losses from not having summed and equalised sub-bass are much more significant than the uncertain gains of having decorrelated sub-bass below 70-ish Hz, in domestic replay systems.

cheers
 
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