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notsodeadlizard

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What is science if not observation? Measurements are a form of observation. No?
There are many available and generally accepted definitions for science and the scientific method.
But we're talking about something different.
We are talking about measuring (or estimation, it's better) the performance of artifacts, products that have already been made by man and not by nature.
There is almost no science here, there is pure engineering.
There is nothing wrong or offensive in this nuance, it's just a fact.
 

notsodeadlizard

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Are you related to Rob Watts?
Thank you for indirectly showing me this Chord Engineering.
They have a very funny design of devices. But the prices are not funny at all. And they are staying afloat.
It turns out that it is possible.
This is interesting.
 

Curvature

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There are many available and generally accepted definitions for science and the scientific method.
But we're talking about something different.
We are talking about measuring (or estimation, it's better) the performance of artifacts, products that have already been made by man and not by nature.
There is almost no science here, there is pure engineering.
There is nothing wrong or offensive in this nuance, it's just a fact.
You're very wrong. A lot of the history of science is trying to figure out certain phenomena in manmade objects. For example, electricity was discovered because of an attempt to figure out static charges with certain materials. That lead to a lot of discoveries about the nature of anatomy, weather and so on. Very fundamental things.
 

sarumbear

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U

i own a forum that’s been running for over 25 years.

My solution was impose a fee per year to non experts so to speak.

Not a perfect solution and it took awhile for folks to except.
I am interested to learn more about your forum, assuming it is about audio?
 

IAtaman

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This is the first time I've heard of this person, but I looked up who he is.
It turns out that there are several Rob Watts.
No, absolutely not.
I have nothing to do with either BBС in Germany or Chord Electronics (wow, there are some).
I'm just an "objectivist" in the sense that there are some objective things around, not necessarily very scientific, if I may say so.
Yeah, I was not specific enough. I meant Rob "the JWST" Watts, consultant to Chord Electronics.
 

fpitas

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Once we accept the X Factor our trolls bang on about, and realize we are serving no purpose here, ASR may become a porn site.
 

Sgt. Ear Ache

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There are many available and generally accepted definitions for science and the scientific method.
But we're talking about something different.
We are talking about measuring (or estimation, it's better) the performance of artifacts, products that have already been made by man and not by nature.
There is almost no science here, there is pure engineering.
There is nothing wrong or offensive in this nuance, it's just a fact.

lol, oh ok then.
 

NiagaraPete

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I am interested to learn more about your forum, assuming it is about audio?
It’s not. The fee is to keep people wanting to spam or not directly interested in our topic stay out.
 

sarumbear

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fpitas

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Gentlemen, you are giving away your age by talking about a porn site in the form of a forum.
I honestly didn't know about porn forums. But if it's for science, I'll give it a try.
 

notsodeadlizard

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lol, oh ok then.
Especially for you and in the name of objectivity:


Fortunately for all of us, science does not study artifacts, because artifacts are already created on the basis of the knowledge gained by science.
Purists such as Nobel, for example, rejected mathematics as a science, because mathematics operates with pure abstractions and is not strictly formally a science (but it is definitely the highest form of philosophy, but you should ask Bertrand Russell about this).
But, in any case, and practically regardless of the specific definition of science: science provides knowledge about nature and its fundamental laws, engineering turns this knowledge into artifacts, technologies turn artifacts into products accessible to everyone.
And there is nothing in the products themselves that is interesting to science.
This is an area of interest for engineering and sales.
 

Holdt

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Most people here are not scientists and I firmly believe that majority is not that interested in minute details of scientific theory. If one is mostly interested in practical applications then there are less new groundbreaking things to discuss day to day.

I have seen this happen in other hobbyist forums as well: a lot of discussions is started by new people who cannot be bothered to read previous discussions or won't use few hours to understand the basics which would reduce the number of useless questions. Old farts might get frustrated time to time, "not this shit again", but it's just the way it is in internet.

People who are interested in bodybuilding type of training might notice eerily similar questions in those forums: "is it better to do three sets of six or four sets of eight in squats?", "should I use whey concentrate or isolate in my recovery drink?", "what exercise targets my upper mid pectoral muscles the best?". You could approach these questions scientifically and going through dozens of papers you might reach a conclusion that one or the other is probably 1-2% more effective in certain conditions but in real world it makes no difference at all, countless other variables make those aforementioned things appear as just useless noise and for this reasons old guys might just tell newbies to just fkn lift weights, eat and rest for a few years first and forget about the rest.

You also have the subjectivists there who claim some new type of bicep exercise combined with some herb caused their arms to blow up two inches in a month. Asking for measurements gets you the same response as from power cable hobbyists "just try it yourself, those guys in lab coats don't know anything about real world". :D
Well sometimes it's just easier to ask your question to the ones that can answer right away than to read 120 pages of different studies or whitepapers.
 

NiagaraPete

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caught gesture

caught gesture

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And there is nothing in the products themselves that is interesting to science.
Is this strictly true? The Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is a combination of products, superconducting electromagnets, the accelerator ring, etc, in one 27-kilometre product. I would say that all the scientists studying the effects of the collision of particles are finding it very interesting.
Products interact with the natural world and scientists study this interaction.
 

Sgt. Ear Ache

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Especially for you and in the name of objectivity:


Fortunately for all of us, science does not study artifacts, because artifacts are already created on the basis of the knowledge gained by science.
Purists such as Nobel, for example, rejected mathematics as a science, because mathematics operates with pure abstractions and is not strictly formally a science (but it is definitely the highest form of philosophy, but you should ask Bertrand Russell about this).
But, in any case, and practically regardless of the specific definition of science: science provides knowledge about nature and its fundamental laws, engineering turns this knowledge into artifacts, technologies turn artifacts into products accessible to everyone.
And there is nothing in the products themselves that is interesting to science.
This is an area of interest for engineering and sales.

feel free to obfuscate all you want. Some of what this site is about is measuring gear to assess whether or not it does what it's supposed to do. But this site is also about challenging the claims made by audiophiles about being able to hear things that are highly dubious at best (and often charging big bucks for products based on those claims). So, all you need to do is provide some sort of convincing evidence (you know, based on scientific principles) that you can actually hear (without seeing) a difference between a couple of dacs, or a couple of competent amps, or between cheap cables and expensive cables, or between different types of crystals or tubes or fuses or whatever, and then we can turn our attention to figuring out how you are able to do so. It seems fairly shocking to me (given the apparent ease with which they are able to delineate fine distinctions via simple open air auditions) that some audiophile group or entity hasn't already taken it upon itself to shut us objectivists up by putting together a big old test day where everyone who's interested - objectivist or subjectivist, skeptic or believer - could take part and the golden-eared could display for us all the wonderous power of their infinitely resolving biological hearing apparatus.
 
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