Vinyl is not as bad as I expected.

[Sal1950]

T

irstly CDs don't sound as much better than LPs as one may expect from the measurements is, I think, because the actual dynamic range and frequency range we hear is actually far narrower than we believe, so the shortcomings of LPs aren't as obvious as one may expect and that leads to the second,

True Frank, but only if the owner is fastidious about keeping his LP's, stylus, etc; clean and is using top flight gear properly maintained. But if the majority of today users are anything like the old ones, the playback SQ quickly turns to junk.

that the variation in the sound quality pf the recortdings we listen to is greater, often far greater, than the difference between the various bits of equipment and mediiums we choose to listen to them on.

That's always been the story but with the exception of DR the consistancy of sound quality has improved quite a lot over the decades. Thankfully digital medial remains pristine short of serious owner abuse, vinyl remains highly dependant on user handling and playback gear.

 

[symphara]

I will agree to disagree on how easy it is to find a "good sounding digital version" of some older music. As mentioned earlier if you grew up hearing music a certain way and it is changed (remastered) I find I tend to prefer the "original" version. In addition for me part of the fun of the Hi-Fi recorded music hobby is the historic and artistic context of the recorded music. Original LP's have the large artwork and "sound" like the original which includes the technology and mastering style of the day. For instance if an LP originally came out in Mono and was "remastered to stereo" years late I will almost always prefer the original mono version. Of course no one "needs" the ability to play LP's to enjoy listening to music but for me and apparently others it adds some fun and entertainment to the process. For me the more formats I can play the more opportunity for fun.... YMMV.

You're disagreeing with something I haven't written. I will say it again: I have no problem finding good digital recordings (including older ones) and generally speaking no problem finding great ones too. A good digital recording sounds much better than its vinyl equivalent and a great one is a universe apart.

A lot of modern music that I listen to is just simply not possible to record properly on vinyl because of format limitations, particularly electronic, modern jazz, modern classical etc. Stuff with lots of base and high dynamic range.

Vinyl can never, ever sound like https://www.amazon.com/Lestro-Armonico-Op-3-1/dp/B0000C16SA

 

[ahofer]

A lot of modern music that I listen to is just simply not possible to record properly on vinyl because of format limitations, particularly electronic, modern jazz, modern classical etc. Stuff with lots of base and high dynamic range.

I've never heard a close/intermediate-mic'd dynamic piano sound right on LP. Never. Either they drown it in hall noise or compression, it exceeds LP dynamic range, or it recedes into surface noise.

 

[Count Arthur]

There are two things of note here IMO.
Firstly CDs don't sound as much better than LPs as one may expect from the measurements is, I think, because the actual dynamic range and frequency range we hear is actually far narrower than we believe, so the shortcomings of LPs aren't as obvious as one may expect and that leads to the second, that the variation in the sound quality pf the recortdings we listen to is greater, often far greater, than the difference between the various bits of equipment and mediiums we choose to listen to them on.

As an alternative take on that, while the differences between LP and CD may not be as great as expected with a turntable and CD player of similar quality, that's not necessarily how most people encountered the two mediums.

When CD players first came out, many people may have bought a one make "stack system", something like this:

Generally speaking, the turntables in these systems was something of an afterthought, lightweight, flimsy and very cheaply constructed. As such, in general the CD player sounded vastly superior, and in addition to the added convenience, likely contributed to CDs mainstream acceptance.

 

[Bob from Florida]

T

True Frank, but only if the owner is fastidious about keeping his LP's, stylus, etc; clean and is using top flight gear properly maintained. But if the majority of today users are anything like the old ones, the playback SQ quickly turns to junk.

That's always been the story but with the exception of DR the consistancy of sound quality has improved quite a lot over the decades. Thankfully digital medial remains pristine short of serious owner abuse, vinyl remains highly dependant on user handling and playback gear.

You have make a commitment to taking care of your vinyl. Which means keeping it clean, replacing the stock sleeve if necessary, and not playing "frisbee" with your album. A vacuum based record cleaning machine is highly recommended. You don't need to spend a fortune on your turntable but easily could surpass $2000 before cartridge and phono preamp. The new Technics direct drive has a version around $1600 that looks like a pretty good value. Point is - unless you luck out at Good Will, etc - vinyl will cost some serious bucks. Many will ask "why bother?". My answer is I enjoy the process of vinyl playback. I enjoyed - years ago - learning how to do proper table-arm-cartridge setup. Right now I am working my way through my record collection after latest cartridge change. Used my digital system maybe twice since the new cartridge install. Eventually I will get back to balancing my listening sessions between vinyl and digital.

 

[levimax]

You're disagreeing with something I haven't written. I will say it again: I have no problem finding good digital recordings (including older ones) and generally speaking no problem finding great ones too. A good digital recording sounds much better than its vinyl equivalent and a great one is a universe apart.

I will agree to disagree... I do have issues finding digital versions of older music that I prefer and I have not heard a digital recording that is "much better" or a "universe apart" than a good LP version... my experience is good digital is "different" and sometimes "better". I do not listen to classical music and of course this is where digital can really shine so our experiences are not directly comparable.

 

[symphara]

I will agree to disagree... I do have issues finding digital versions of older music that I prefer and I have not heard a digital recording that is "much better" or a "universe apart" than a good LP version... my experience is good digital is "different" and sometimes "better". I do not listen to classical music and of course this is where digital can really shine so our experiences are not directly comparable.

You don’t need classical. Try Touch by Yello on LP and CD and you’ll see there’s a world of difference between them. Vinyl simply can’t do it.

 

[Robin L]

After years and years of believing that LPs were superior because they are not digital, and now that almost all LPs go through a digital stage somewhere along the line, I have flipped my POV 100%, now find LPs horrible because they are not digital. Frequency response? LPs suck. Distortion? LPs suck. IGD? LPs suck. Disc eccentricity? Ultrasuck. Can't unhear any of this anymore, don't see any reason why I should spend another bit of my income or attention on them. The OP is "They aren't that bad." My response is that they are more than bad enough.

 

[levimax]

After years and years of believing that LPs were superior because they are not digital, and now that almost all LPs go through a digital stage somewhere along the line, I have flipped my POV 100%, now find LPs horrible because they are not digital. Frequency response? LPs suck. Distortion? LPs suck. IGD? LPs suck. Disc eccentricity? Ultrasuck. Can't unhear any of this anymore, don't see any reason why I should spend another bit of my income or attention on them. The OP is "They aren't that bad." My response is that they are more than bad enough.

I agree that "new" LP's do not make a lot of sense if they are sourced from the same digital master as a CD or streaming. I bought some new LP's and did not like them and sold them.... sounded like the streaming version with more noise. I do buy older original pressings which often do have a unique mastering that is no longer available. On the other hand while new LP's don't make sense to me others do enjoy them and some may even have unique mastering's. Lot's of way to have fun with recorded music.

 

[Newman]

When CD players first came out, many people may have bought a one make "stack system", something like this:

That would be at least 5, maybe 10 years later.

When CD players first came out, they were $1000 each, or in that bracket. Only audiophiles bought them. And CDs were at least 3x the price of new vinyl. Only audiophiles bought them too. And most of them would have had more-than-respectable TTs.

 

[Newman]

I'm not pushing vinyl to the top, I only say that I see many debatable opinions about vinyl as a "second class" sound from people that really never experienced a real good analog system in their life.

I have seen studio engineers describing how they do all this work to produce a recording and get a master sounding just right, and everyone is ecstatic. The work has been destined from the start for release as CD and vinyl, so they prepare a CD master and, using all their specialised vinyl knowledge, a vinyl master, and send them both off to production and, in time, back comes a pre-production CD and LP. They play each of them on their in-house equipment, each being high-grade players that are professionally maintained and with minimal wear and tear.

Vinyl: “Sounds very good, thoroughly enjoyable, congratulations to all involved in producing it, we have gotten the best out of it. But it’s not what we heard in the studio, definitely a notch down.”

CD: “Now THAT’S what we heard in the studio.”

 

[mike70]

I have seen studio engineers describing how they do all this work to produce a recording and get a master sounding just right, and everyone is ecstatic. The work has been destined from the start for release as CD and vinyl, so they prepare a CD master and, using all their specialised vinyl knowledge, a vinyl master, and send them both off to production and, in time, back comes a pre-production CD and LP. They play each of them on their in-house equipment, each being high-grade players that are professionally maintained and with minimal wear and tear.

Vinyl: “Sounds very good, thoroughly enjoyable, congratulations to all involved in producing it, we have gotten the best out of it. But it’s not what we heard in the studio, definitely a notch down.”

CD: “Now THAT’S what we heard in the studio.”

they hear it in double blind?
or science is only applied to prove things you like?

all the topic is like a loop about how awful is vinyl, inconvenient, expensive, blah blah ... someone do a real double blind with a good and rightly adjusted analog system? or made acoustic measurements in the final results? (not in the source, i mean in the room)

source measurements is what i know, and everyone here knows ... but ... it's not what i objectively hear and listened in good analog systems.
it's only brain tricks? it can be, of course.
but, someone do the math? or we're only thinking that it must be that way?
we can make the hipothesis where all the great difference is awfully eaten down the river? ... it's impossible?

 

[Robin L]

they hear it in double blind?
or science is only applied to prove things you like?

all the topic is like a loop about how awful is vinyl, inconvenient, expensive, blah blah ... someone do a real double blind with a good and rightly adjusted analog system? or made acoustic measurements in the final results? (not in the source, i mean in the room)

source measurements is what i know, and everyone here knows ... but ... it's not what i objectively hear and listened in good analog systems.
it's only brain tricks? it can be, of course.
but, someone do the math? or we're only thinking that it must be that way?
we can make the hipothesis where all the great difference is awfully eaten down the river? ... it's impossible?

They hear it in the compression artifacts, the reduction of frequency extremes and the inevitable IGD. This is the sort of performance failure that doesn't require DBT. This is obvious to those who heard the masters, then heard the vinyl pressing.

 

[mike70]

They hear it in the compression artifacts, the reduction of frequency extremes and the inevitable IGD. This is the sort of performance failure that doesn't require DBT. This is obvious to those who heard the masters, then heard the vinyl pressing.

So, what you say it's not based in science proved methods.

And ... I don't hear IGD ... only with bad adjusted cartridges or conical stylus. I see cartridges with 30 or more khz in high frequency response, maybe they used a basic cartridge and they thought that is all.

If vinyl it's THAT awful ... I can't hear what I hear with vinyl ... 0 difference with digital. I only recognize better or worst recordings between the formats.

 

[rdenney]

I like occasionally listening to records, but I think it’s immune to blind testing. The vinyl roar in the quiet bits is just unmistakeable.

Rick “who has ears to hear” Denney

 

[mike70]

I like occasionally listening to records, but I think it’s immune to blind testing. The vinyl roar in the quiet bits is just unmistakeable.

Rick “who has ears to hear” Denney

With a really good turntable and preamp that "wow & flutter" and background noise it's pretty much inaudible with a "normal" volume.

I began to think many people doesn't hear a real good analog system ... and maybe I understand what people said about vinyl in this topic. Maybe I need to left this as is.

 

[MRC01]

I appreciate his honesty, saying "I don't know". But I'll bet he can make a pretty good guess. When he gave the CD master file to be cut to vinyl, they had to make a bunch of changes, not the least of which are reducing the amount of bass, summing low bass to mono, and RIAA equalization. Most of the amplitude/energy in music is in the low frequencies (you can imagine the high frequencies as small ripples riding along on the much bigger and slower bass wave), so anything you do to the bass makes a big difference on overall amplitudes, which affects DR scores.

For one example, I've experimented applying various bass reduction EQ to digital files and it usually increases the DR values. And what they do to cut it to vinyl is much more than that.

 

[Robin L]

With a really good turntable and preamp that "wow & flutter" and background noise it's pretty much inaudible with a "normal" volume.

I began to think many people doesn't hear a real good analog system ... and maybe I understand what people said about vinyl in this topic. Maybe I need to left this as is.

Wow and flutter is an issue [often caused by pressing imperfections and arm resonances], but eccentric pressings are the real problem. Playback volume that the engineers heard during the session will expose various surface noises with LP playback. I've heard some of the best analog systems. IGD is baked in to every spiral grooved analog disc, and once you hear it, you can't unhear it. IGD is not so much about alignment as it is of the velocity of the groove radically reducing [60%] from the lead-in to the dead wax and there isn't a blessed thing that can be done about it except to play the digital file of the master recording or a downsampling [from 24 bit to 16 bit, to lossless files] of the music prior to LP mastering and playback. The problem is obvious, the solution is just as obvious.

 

[mike70]

Wow and flutter is an issue [often caused by pressing imperfections and arm resonances], but eccentric pressings are the real problem. Playback volume that the engineers heard during the session will expose various surface noises with LP playback. I've heard some of the best analog systems. IGD is baked in to every spiral grooved analog disc, and once you hear it, you can't unhear it. IGD is not so much about alignment as it is of the velocity of the groove radically reducing [60%] from the lead-in to the dead wax and there isn't a blessed thing that can be done about it except to play the digital file of the master recording or a downsampling [from 24 bit to 16 bit, to lossless files] of the music prior to LP mastering and playback. The problem is obvious, the solution is just as obvious.

I disagree.

The linear speed is reduced, yes, but the real effect is ... more information per groove distance ... and that doesn't mean distortion.

Distortion happens when the cartridge / stylus / suspension cannot "track" correctly the information in the groove, and you have a more difficult groove to track, obviously ... but the IGD happens when the cartridge cannot read it rightly. With conical / eliptical styluses and MM cartridges not very good adjusted it can happen easily (MC cartridges have an improved internal motor, so even a conical works much better than MM)

Other source of IGD happens when a previously misaligned cartridge made physical damage in the groove ... that's irreversible obviously. Also dirt or static can create IGD.

 

[rdenney]

With a really good turntable and preamp that "wow & flutter" and background noise it's pretty much inaudible with a "normal" volume.

I began to think many people doesn't hear a real good analog system ... and maybe I understand what people said about vinyl in this topic. Maybe I need to left this as is.

That’s the standard response, isn’t it? “Your system isn’t good enough”. And then when it is,”your ears aren’t good enough.”

My stuff is good quality, set up meticulously, and thoroughly enjoyed by me. Thorens turntable, AT440mla cartridge, well-regarded phono stage in an Adcom 565 preamp. Not at all high end, but that stuff is most assuredly not the cause of vinyl roar. The vinyl roar sits about 30 dB down—even I can hear it during the quiet bits. Doesn’t bother me, but it’s there. It’s absolutely not wow and flutter.

I’ve watched a few YouTubes of various luminaries showing off their systems. I can just about always hear the needle land in the groove, even through YT, if I’m using headphones. And those guys do have high-end stuff.

Maybe if I had speakers that rolled off at 100 Hz I wouldn’t hear it.

A blind test would have to be music loud and continuous enough to mask it, just to avoid the obvious tell.

Rick “can’t miss it” Denney