Vandersteen 3A Sig's sound DEAD and Lifeless...Can the SHD save them?

[richard12511]

Yeah, I’m leaning that way, but I’m not only interested in the JBL’s. I might try a bookshelf. That would integrate with the dual Def Tech SuperCube II Subwoofers to provide a serious bottom end.

Here are couple of speakers I've been eyeballing...
Elac Debut Reference DBR-62's
Revel M105's
Ascend Acoustics Sierra 2 (?? are they lively?)

I might even try my powered KRK VXT6's to go with the subwoofers.

Sierra 2EX are neutral, based on what I heard. I slightly preferred the Revel M105 over them, but the Sierra's still sounded great, and would best the M105 if you're running without subs. I would also look at Genelec 8030c. I own both the 8030c and M105 and I think I prefer the Genelecs. I haven't heard the DBR-62, so I can't really comment on that.

 

[HionHiFi]

I did some in room measurements today to hear the sound of the speakers in the room.

It looks pretty rough at several points.
I have several deficiencies in the response:
Big dips from 50Hz-80Hz and again from 80-120Hz.

Any ideas of how to fix this response?

 

[sfdoddsy]

So here I am with a pair of legendarily good sounding, accurate speakers in the Vandy 3A Signatures. The problem is in my room they are just blah, boring, with no excitement.

My question is, Can the MiniDSP SHD with Dirac help?

I had a pair of JBL Studio 590's that I like the sound of. They had great bass and were lively. The Studio 590's are my reference for more lively sound.

I have 2 subwoofers that I can integrate into making the Vandy's liven up. Any suggestions?

HionHiFi

It seems no-one has actually answered your question.

A MiniDSP can certainly EQ your Vandies to your heart’s desire.

The trick would be working out what needs EQing.

If it is just a rolled off treble, your prepro can help. Many say that treble and bass controls are evil, but in fact they do a similar thing to room EQ.

Have a fiddle.

On the other hand you may be right about the Vandersteen sound. I personally find them rolled off on the top, finicky with placement due to the crossover, and too close to the Harman curve for accuracy.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I did some in room measurements today to hear the sound of the speakers in the room.

View attachment 87264
It looks pretty rough at several points.
I have several deficiencies in the response:
Big dips from 50Hz-80Hz and again from 80-120Hz.

Any ideas of how to fix this response?

The in-room response looks pretty good from 500Hz up, suggesting the main issue is your room rather than the speakers. Some treatment, or fiddling around with placement, may help in the 200-500Hz range (or lower down too if you go for more serious treatment), but bass management (EQ or something automated) is likely to be the easiest solution.

 

[HionHiFi]

Sierra 2EX are neutral, based on what I heard. I slightly preferred the Revel M105 over them, but the Sierra's still sounded great, and would best the M105 if you're running without subs. I would also look at Genelec 8030c. I own both the 8030c and M105 and I think I prefer the Genelecs. I haven't heard the DBR-62, so I can't really comment on that.

I’d be using dual subs.

 

[HionHiFi]

The in-room response looks pretty good from 500Hz up, suggesting the main issue is your room rather than the speakers. Some treatment, or fiddling around with placement, may help in the 200-500Hz range (or lower down too if you go for more serious treatment), but bass management (EQ or something automated) is likely to be the easiest solution.

Today I’m going to do some speaker and listening position tweaking to see if I can find a place in the room where the 500Hz works.

 

[HionHiFi]

Did some more in-room measurements today.
Room Dimensions: 14'W (168") x 18’L (216”) x 8'H (96")
SqFt: 252 sqft or 2016 cuft
Off the back wall: 20”
Off the side wall: 34”
Speaker enter to center: 103”
Sitting position to Speaker: 157”

So this ends being a comparison between 20” & 24” off the back wall & 34” off the side wall 34” and one more, Listening position 51" off the back wall at the bottom of the post.

Left 24” vs Left 20” off the back wall, side wall 34”

Right 24” vs Right 20” off the back wall, side wall 34”

20” off the back wall benefits
Better aesthetics in my room
Less roll-off from 80-120Hz

20” off the back wall negatives
Not sure yet.

Here is an in-room response on actual music. The music shows the min/max of the song. I think is useful, allowing me to see deficiencies in the frequency response.

Ultimately this is just the first step in setup. Due to the position of the speakers in the room I have very limited placement options.

Dirac will come next, but before I bounce, I did another measurement, this time pulling the couch 51" off the back wall and leaving the speakers 20” off the back wall, side wall 34”.

And then the AVG:

note:
MiniDSP UMIK-1
90* correction file used
Microphone pointed at the ceiling
Top
Microphone at 35”

 

[Gphoton]

Hi, I use Vandersteen 3A signatures with a VTV Purifi Amp and fed by a Topping E30 DAC out of a Paradigm PW-Link using Anthem room correction with a 5 point measurement and a downward slope profile. I like the room correction difference, as like you I had measured significant bumps and dips. The sound is less colored with correction. The speakers are aimed at my chair and tilted back.

 

[Daverz]

Hi, I use Vandersteen 3A signatures with a VTV Purifi Amp and fed by a Topping E30 DAC out of a Paradigm PW-Link using Anthem room correction with a 5 point measurement and a downward slope profile. I like the room correction difference, as like you I had measured significant bumps and dips. The sound is less colored with correction. The speakers are aimed at my chair and tilted back.

I never tried aiming Vandersteens at the listening position because of what the manual has to say about toe-in. Perhaps I should have "disobeyed"

 

[andreasmaaan]

I never tried aiming Vandersteens at the listening position because of what the manual has to say about toe-in. Perhaps I should have "disobeyed"

View attachment 87596

Just having a look now at your speakers' measurements here.

The listening window response is quite flat, and although the response horizontally off-axis is a bit choppy, the general trend is smooth. That should mean that the degree of toe-in is a question of taste and room acoustics. I.e. I wouldn't think there'd be any reason to avoid toe-ing them in.

Also FYI, looking at the vertical off-axis, it's clear that, if you're not on the tweeter axis, it's better to be below it rather than above it:

Hope this info helps in some way.

 

[Rick Sykora]

Looks like the speakers are fine but you have some bass issues that dual subwoofers should improve. Much beyond that will require different speakers.

Keep up the good work and should pay off!

 

[Daverz]

Just having a look now at your speakers' measurements here.

I actually have the Quatros, which are similar to the 3As that the OP has, but with built in powered subwoofers. Measurements here:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/vandersteen-audio-quatro-loudspeaker-measurements

I have never tried aiming them right at the listening position. Maybe if I'm feeling restless I'll give it a try (I'm currently using Buchardt S400s, which image better in my room.)

 

[andreasmaaan]

I actually have the Quatros, which are similar to the 3As that the OP has, but with built in powered subwoofers. Measurements here:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/vandersteen-audio-quatro-loudspeaker-measurements

I have never tried aiming them right at the listening position. Maybe if I'm feeling restless I'll give it a try (I'm currently using Buchardt S400s, which image better in my room.)

Ah, I had confused who the OP was! Fair enough

 

[HionHiFi]

Just having a look now at your speakers' measurements here.

The listening window response is quite flat, and although the response horizontally off-axis is a bit choppy, the general trend is smooth. That should mean that the degree of toe-in is a question of taste and room acoustics. I.e. I wouldn't think there'd be any reason to avoid toe-ing them in.

View attachment 87615
View attachment 87616

Also FYI, looking at the vertical off-axis, it's clear that, if you're not on the tweeter axis, it's better to be below it rather than above it:

View attachment 87617

Hope this info helps in some way.

I’m using the setup recommended by Vandersteen which is to point them mostly straight ahead with a slight toe-in. That is the position I’ve measured them from.

 

[Daverz]

Ah, I had confused who the OP was! Fair enough

Issues are very similar, though. "Dull sounding" is a common complaint about Vandersteens.

 

[HionHiFi]

Issues are very similar, though. "Dull sounding" is a common complaint about Vandersteens.

The sound quality has improved. It is more consistent across the frequency range with Dirac in, and the speakers sit closer to the back wall which is more aesthetically pleasing. Dirac clearly has had positive effects in the middle to high ranges but I’m not so sure about the low end. The low end has been seemingly nearly knocked out by Dirac. Maybe I’ve gotta adjust to the “new normal” with this setup before making a judgement. The sound in my room is still rather blah even if smooth in room.

I suppose it’s apropos that I wouldn’t like these speakers. Vandersteen didn’t design them for me. They designed them for music lover’s. I’ve read that Richard Vandersteen designs his speakers for music lovers, NOT audiophiles. Which I take to mean they strive for accuracy above all. I’m not Vandersteen’s target audience, but I AM their intended and primary customer.

I thought I wanted an “accurate” speaker but apparently I don’t. After my Dunlavy SC-V’s went away, every other “accurately” designed speaker in my house sounded rather blah, from Snell, to Egglestonworks, to PSB’s. The speakers I’ve enjoyed are JBL Studio 590’s. I prefer a livelier speaker rather than the “warmer” (for lack of a better word), speaker.

I have a pair of Elac DBR62’s on the way. Go figure... my reasoning being they’re livelier than the Vandy’s, and I can fill in the low end with my dual subs. If I don’t like them I’ll buy a pair of JBL’s.

 

[Shazb0t]

The sound quality has improved. It is more consistent across the frequency range with Dirac in, and the speakers sit closer to the back wall which is more aesthetically pleasing. Dirac clearly has had positive effects in the middle to high ranges but I’m not so sure about the low end. The low end has been seemingly nearly knocked out by Dirac. Maybe I’ve gotta adjust to the “new normal” with this setup before making a judgement. The sound in my room is still rather blah even if smooth in room.

I suppose it’s apropos that I wouldn’t like these speakers. Vandersteen didn’t design them for me. They designed them for music lover’s. I’ve read that Richard Vandersteen designs his speakers for music lovers, NOT audiophiles. Which I take to mean they strive for accuracy above all. I’m not Vandersteen’s target audience, but I AM their intended and primary customer.

I thought I wanted an “accurate” speaker but apparently I don’t. After my Dunlavy SC-V’s went away, every other “accurately” designed speaker in my house sounded rather blah, from Snell, to Egglestonworks, to PSB’s. The speakers I’ve enjoyed are JBL Studio 590’s. I prefer a livelier speaker rather than the “warmer” (for lack of a better word), speaker.

I have a pair of Elac DBR62’s on the way. Go figure... my reasoning being they’re livelier than the Vandy’s, and I can fill in the low end with my dual subs. If I don’t like them I’ll buy a pair of JBL’s.

If you like the 590's why not own a pair of them? They're routinely on sale for a low price and objectively are not a bad speaker.

 

[HionHiFi]

If you like the 590's why not own a pair of them? They're routinely on sale for a low price and objectively are not a bad speaker.

Good question. Logically, I should and call it a day but I’m a flawed person, throwing logic to the wind...”Logic...HA!”

Here are 3 reasons for not immediately buying a pair of Studio 590’s...

1. The JBL Studio 590’s are BIG
2. Monitor speakers are small
3. I own dual subwoofers

I want to exhaust the smaller, less expensive option first before repurchasing another pair of huge speakers.

Nevermind, I cancelled the Elac DBR62’s and ordered a pair of Studio 590’s. Buying new gives me a return window and free shipping. Hell, why not.

I can find another home for the subwoofers if they won’t fit behind the speakers.

 

[Daverz]

I’m using the setup recommended by Vandersteen which is to point them mostly straight ahead with a slight toe-in. That is the position I’ve measured them from.

Ah, OK, it was GPhoton who had his speakers pointed at the listening position. Gotta pay attention to that OP sash.

I don't have experience with Dirac, but from my experience with DRC-FIR (which may mean nothing), I would suggest getting the speakers even closer to the front wall if possible. Otherwise, you can try adding a room curve with elevated bass.

 

[CDMC]

Just wondering, maybe what it is you crave is the ability to handle large dynamic swings. The SCV were accurate, but also had a lot of driver area and spl output capability, as they were also pretty efficient (91 db watt). Have you checked to see what you output peaks are? For some things, there is no replacement for displacement and that requires decent sized cabinets and drivers. I know that if I really crank my F208s up, even with a 24db octave high pass at 70hz, those twin 8” woofers still move a lot.