Creating bass weight and impact?

[tinnitus]

What helps is membrane surface, here 6 x 10"

 

[Bjorn]

There's nothing that beats the combination of horn loading and constant directivity above approximately 100 Hz.
Stacked front firing woofers doesn't do the same job due to several acoustic issues.

But I've always been surprised how much hit and slam you get from even smaller drivers if the decay of the the room response is very short. Notes that hang long in the room is a giant killer.

 

[Mr. Widget]

What helps is membrane surface, here 6 x 10"

I think membrane area in combination with motor strength, but it must also continue fairly high up in frequency.

In my media room I have multiple subs deployed in a typical fashion, ie. set with an 80Hz crossover frequency. My LCR mains are a trio of Meyer Sound Ultra-X20s which have essentially unlimited headroom... rated at 123.5dB @ 1m continuous with pink noise. The speakers have exceeded my expectations in every parameter and especially in 2 channel imaging where they are simply staggeringly good, but with twin 5" woofers they simply DO NOT create the sense of weight and impact that the larger systems do.

 

[gnarly]

I think membrane area in combination with motor strength, but it must also continue fairly high up in frequency.

In my media room I have multiple subs deployed in a typical fashion, ie. set with an 80Hz crossover frequency. My LCR mains are a trio of Meyer Sound Ultra-X20s which have essentially unlimited headroom... rated at 123.5dB @ 1m continuous with pink noise. The speakers have exceeded my expectations in every parameter and especially in 2 channel imaging where they are simply staggeringly good, but with twin 5" woofers they simply DO NOT create the sense of weight and impact that the larger systems do.

Yep. The "no replacement for displacement" extends on up the freq range. And the displacement needs the motor strength to move it.

Damndest weight and impact i've heard from a single-box speaker is this one...kicks like a mule !!
Heard that metallica has used it as a drum monitor on occasion...dunno if true though...

https://cdn-docs.av-iq.com/dataSheet/Meyer%20Sound%20MTS-4A%20Data%20Sheet.pdf

 

[srrxr71]

amroc - THE Room Mode Calculator

HTML5 room mode calculator. Read and hear the tune of axial, tangential and oblique modes. Scientific sources included.

amcoustics.com

I found this site useful to try to figure out room modes.

 

[Sined]

So why do we think a natural drum is okay but our speakers cannot replicate it?

I would rather say "why do we think a natural drum is ok but the recording engineers don't record it that way"

 

[srrxr71]

I would rather say "why do we think a natural drum is ok but the recording engineers don't record it that way"

Yeah pretty much.

 

[Sokel]

I would rather say "why do we think a natural drum is ok but the recording engineers don't record it that way"

Dirty and rough:

conservatively we fall at 8381A's SPL ability (and close to their power amps rating coincidentally)

 

[audiofooled]

I would rather say "why do we think a natural drum is ok but the recording engineers don't record it that way"

It was hard to put it on to vinyl back in the day? It would rob you of your headroom and drive amps into clipping?

On occasion I bump into live recordings which are containing the real and unrestricted drum performance. They do hit hard but can drive the system into audible clipping. There are some tradeoffs obviously. Really good drumkit recordings are as rare as good piano recordings, albeit for entirely different reasons.

 

[srrxr71]

It was hard to put it on to vinyl back in the day? It would rob you of your headroom and drive amps into clipping?

On occasion I bump into live recordings which are containing the real and unrestricted drum performance. They do hit hard but can drive the system into audible clipping. There are some tradeoffs obviously. Really good drumkit recordings are as rare as good piano recordings, albeit for entirely different reasons.

I realize this will take us off topic but what is the issue for piano recordings?

 

[audiofooled]

I realize this will take us off topic but what is the issue for piano recordings?

This way we don't detour:

Is Amateur Piano Recording This Hard?

I guess three things are a bit unusual to a piano compared to most instruments: dynamics, size (or "directivity"...?) and the actual "sound" of it of course. On the last point, I often find the nature of piano can cause some mics & speakers difficulty with distortions. Not a problem for...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[stringer]

What helps is membrane surface, here 6 x 10"View attachment 334153

My cat would love those speakers

 

[audiofooled]

Back on topic, in my experience nothing hits harder than electronic music. Bass is done with pitching down sinewaves as I described in an earlier post and if done carefully, it can be very transient in nature, yet benign on the headroom. If I had to pick just one:

This is clean, tight, with pretty high crest factor. If your system has weight and impact we are discussing, this track will contain all the frequencies that make it happen. For me, I have to be home alone to crank this. The frequency spectrum and amplitude of transients, all those spikes you see, perceptibly are happening simultaneously and are producing effects on the entire body, not just the chest area. When the track is over, you may feel well beaten up. Not for everyone.

 

[Mr. Widget]

It was hard to put it on to vinyl back in the day? It would rob you of your headroom and drive amps into clipping?

Yes, digital's wide FR and potentially over 90dB of headroom solves a lot of the problems.

On occasion I bump into live recordings which are containing the real and unrestricted drum performance. They do hit hard but can drive the system into audible clipping.

My two more serious systems have zero problem with the required dynamic headroom. But as I mentioned in post #223, even being capable of in-room playback at over 120dB isn't the solution. It really isn't just about being loud and most live music that we would consider very loud is between 100dB and 110dB.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Back on topic, in my experience nothing hits harder than electronic music. Bass is done with pitching down sinewaves as I described in an earlier post and if done carefully, it can be very transient in nature, yet benign on the headroom. If I had to pick just one:

I didn't find that particular track in Tidal, but I just played a handful of tracks from Grouch and Smilk and turning them up, they plenty pressurized the room and gave a pretty convincing "Club" sound... there is definitely some impact there. That said, I would submit recreating a really well recorded tympani or rock drum kit is more of a challenge.

Try playing the O-Zone Percussion Group's Jazz Variants. The drums really kick in at about 1 minute 30 seconds into the cut. Playing this track back a bit over 100dB sounds amazing on the right system and just plain loud on others.

BTW: The large bass drum on that recording is very reverberant and will wreak havoc if your have room modes that get excited.

 

[audiofooled]

Try playing the O-Zone Percussion Group's Jazz Variants. The drums really kick in at about 1 minute 30 seconds into the cut. Playing this track back a bit over 100dB sounds amazing on the right system and just plain loud on others.

BTW: The large bass drum on that recording is very reverberant and will wreak havoc if your have room modes that get excited.

I am familiar with this track and it really sounds amazing. However the recording technique is such that it has captured much of the ambiance as in binaural recordings and on my system it has a lot of depth information, putting the entire presentation far, far away behind the loudspeakers, also the front wall. In my living room, front wall is much closer than that. As a result, I get the presentation that they are "over there" and I'm listening to it from another room, through some kind of window. My system is capable of reproduction of such recordings, just not with the current living room setup. At my workshop I set it up this way and the imaging is spooky real in a sense that instruments have their halo floating mid air but they are nowhere to be seen. Great recordings, some Chesky records binaurals sound like that and I love it, just not for my current setup and room. In my living room, they are shy of made for someone else's pinnae.

The large bass drum in the recording, I see what you mean, but it doesn't have any audible detrimental effects on my room, it just shakes it. This is because of me following some of the Earl Geddes recipes when it comes to directivity control. In my opinion, he is right. Having a flat DI from 700-7000Hz and flat FR at some degrees of axis which enables you to toe in the mains so that the side walls are less affected, are indeed a tool for defeating poor room acoustics. This way the direct sound is what you hear, and late reflections are still able to add ambiance. With my current setup, if I listen to a slow sinewave sweep, frequencies starting from just bellow 700Hz, up to the end of (my) audible band, are localized completely anechoic, inside my head. Essentially, I listen to music close field, from 3,5 meters away, if it makes sense. And it's not a "head in a vice", in fact I'm able to move or rotate my head wherever I deem fit. At MLP, the room acoustics for me are almost entirely discarded.

Sorry If I went too much off topic, but I wanted to explain why for me in the recording you suggested, there is nothing visceral about the drum kit, but only the large bass drum. It's a setup issue, for practical reasons.

There is a recording that I sadly know nothing about which is the end of "circle of confusion" for me, which puts a "real" drum kit inside my room. Track is right here and I'm not able to find it elsewhere (queued at 3:53):

For me, my system and setup, this recording has captured the very essence of what it should sound and feel like, all the timbre and the dynamics. So close to the real thing that if I went outside the room, it still sounds like a real drum kit is playing inside my room. Just a wonderful performance and recording technique, with great imaging and almost lifelike impact, even in the upper bass and lower midrange. I say almost as a good thing because the impact of it already is at my threshold of discomfort (within my systems capabilities), and at home it is just loud enough. Any louder and it seems it would be approaching heart attack area.

 

[ooheadsoo]

I'm never quite sure what to make of when people say it sounds like the drums are in the room - the reverb on the above track sounds nothing like the reverb in my room, so for me, I would never be able to say it sounds like it's in my room.

For orchestral bass drums, in real life, a thwack on one of them feels like someone gripped your heart and gave it a quick squeeze. I'm not sure I'm there yet with my systems.

 

[audiofooled]

I'm never quite sure what to make of when people say it sounds like the drums are in the room - the reverb on the above track sounds nothing like the reverb in my room, so for me, I would never be able to say it sounds like it's in my room.

Yes, this is why I tried to describe why is it like that in my room, it's loudspeaker design and setup thing. My system is DIY and one of a kind, tailored to bring what I think is good sound.

For orchestral bass drums, in real life, a thwack on one of them feels like someone gripped your heart and gave it a quick squeeze. I'm not sure I'm there yet with my systems.

That would be at the threshold of pain, and I feel like it's not even desirable at home. Real snare rim shots feel like being able to crack your skull. If a system is loud enough to be able to reproduce that, it could cause severe headache, and at lower frequencies it could cause blood pressure issues and other physical conditions, not to mention permanent hearing damage. Some common sense is always a good thing. My system is idling most of the time and I listen loudly only on rare occasions and limited exposure. Single track duration at a time seems to be long enough before turning the volume down. Yet we are discussing bass weight and impact here and it doesn't come at low SPL. It's physics.

 

[srrxr71]

I'm never quite sure what to make of when people say it sounds like the drums are in the room - the reverb on the above track sounds nothing like the reverb in my room, so for me, I would never be able to say it sounds like it's in my room.

For orchestral bass drums, in real life, a thwack on one of them feels like someone gripped your heart and gave it a quick squeeze. I'm not sure I'm there yet with my systems.

The above track was good but yeah not like a real drum but a good approximation.

In stereo I feel like it brings their room to you assuming you have done a lot of acoustic treatment.

I wonder what a real drum would sound like in my room. That recording sounded pretty good to me.

 

[Svend P]

Those of you who have genuine impact, could you measure how loud you have to play for it to be sensed?