UpTone Audio EtherREGEN Switch Review

[Thomas savage]

Mid-fi? Matrix Element i is a superb streamer and DAC. Here is its measurements which I showed in the review:

Look at the FFT spectrum top right. Its *highest* distortion spike is more than 120 dB lower than the signal. In absolute best case scenario, our hearing has a dynamic range of 115 dB. This means Matrix Element i is *provably* and scientifically transparent to the source signal.

Most audiophiles flunk hearing distortions that rise up to -60 dB. So no way audibly this device at better than 120 dB can be considered "mid-fi."

Now, if you go by price alone, sure, the Element i is actually quite cheap given how much manufacturers rip off consumers with DACs in tens of thousands of dollars. But money doesn't determine fidelity. Proper instrumentation does. Or controlled listening tests.

Besides, as noted, there is not one device on the planet that has shown its output to vary let alone improve with EtherRegen. Not by the manufacturer, nor any press or consumers. You would think all of these people would be motivated to show a difference but they have not been able to. So your argument doesn't have merit regardless.

Mid fi , as in not expensive enough.

 

[bwb]

I will not be dragged into a pointless debate because as I pointed out at the beginning of my post, most of you made up your minds long before any of this was posted.. this is not a lay assumption as I do have extensive background , this is one one of the most unscientific reviews I've ever seen. The reviewer had pre-determined what the outcome would be and yes, it is a ridiculous argument that these test signals are the same as a music signal.

"You see the top left graph? It shows voltage on vertical axis and time in horizontal. Clearly the voltage is changing. It also has phase."

It is red herring to say a single fixed frequency sine wave is "changing." You should be embarrassed to even say that. We're not talking about the sound of DC here so yes, of course, by definition a sine wave amplitude varies. You know that isn't what I meant.

BTW, where did you pull the square wave test from, they aren't mentioned in the initial "review."

In any case, look at the real time spectrum of a music signal compared to a fixed frequency and tell me with a straight face they place the same demands on the device under test. See how the various frequencies in music constantly come and go and the dB level constantly changes. Very different than the spectrums of the signals used. I stand by my assertion that looking at only the jitter from a single device while ignoring all of the other parameters that contribute to how something sounds is not a scientific review.

"But mainly because what we are talking about here is nothing more complicated than resistance to interference or noise." A resounding NO.. Mainly we are interested if it affects the sound.

You and others have latched onto some of the claims made in the marketing material and set out to disprove them. This is the crux of the matter.. I am interested in only one thing.. does it or does it not affect the end result... the sound. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what the jitter measurements are. Don't you all get it? It ultimately doesn't matter how it measures.. it doesn't matter why it does what it does.. very interesting to talk about, but doesn't matter .. this is (or should be) a forum about how things sound, not how they measure. And please don't any of you regurgitate that switches don't have a sound, data is data, switches can't so don't affect anything, blah , blah, blah. Plug it in and listen.. real simple.. if you haven't actually listened to your system with it installed you are guessing. Guesses are not scientific.

and yes, a $990 all in one streamer is not the proper device to use when looking for subtle differences in sound

SO ask yourself ... is it possible the reviewer set out to prove a point, not to discover whatever he might find? Is it possible the testing done was not sufficient to reveal all that could be revealed? Is it possible that the all in one streamer is not capable of revealing some of the subtleties that other equipment is? And maybe most importantly, is it possible that this device affects the outcome in ways we don't understand and can't explain ?? Of course it is all possible and deserves consideration, but since most of you have made up your mind without ever having tried it, you have no other recourse than to dismiss it all out of hand. Your argument boils down to this. None of the questions I asked matter because we know in advance what the outcome will be.

I'll leave you with the observation that some of those who just responded are not here to learn or discuss or to even consider the opinion of someone who disagrees with you, you are only here to engage in self congratulating yourselves on how clever you are bashing things you and the rest of the herd enjoying piling on about. which is the problem with most of these forums... for some reason people like to argue, not discuss ... think about it

so I'll leave you be, I've said all I have to say, take it or leave it


now begin the bashing !!!!

 

[nugget]

I will not be dragged into a pointless debate

A debate is only pointless if one side refuses to engage. If this discussion that you started ends up being pointless, it won't be our fault.

Guesses are not scientific.

Neither are sighted comparisons, but I haven't seen you clamoring for a blind test to ascertain if it actually makes an audible difference or not. You're also neatly avoiding the followup question which is: "if it does make a difference, is that difference an improvement?"

and yes, a $990 all in one streamer is not the proper device to use when looking for subtle differences in sound

Why not? Do electrical signals know how much you spent on a component?

And please don't any of you regurgitate that switches don't have a sound, data is data, switches can't so don't affect anything, blah , blah, blah.

These arguments are only repeated because they have not been debunked. If you want to stop hearing people tell you these things, provide some contradictory evidence.

 

[BDWoody]

Don't you all get it? It ultimately doesn't matter how it measures..

Hard to know how to respond to that, other than to say this is a SCIENCE forum...not a 'pull out the Vaseline and tell me about your revealing midrange' forum.

So, do you own one?

 

[NTK]

...
It is red herring to say a single fixed frequency sine wave is "changing." You should be embarrassed to even say that. We're not talking about the sound of DC here so yes, of course, by definition a sine wave amplitude varies. You know that isn't what I meant.
...

This is purely anthropomorphic thinking. You think the DAC knows the signal is a single tone sine wave and will therefore find it more relaxing to reproduce?

Anyway, it is totally irrelevant. The thing is on the digital side, not analog. Now you're telling me it is more stressful for the whatever equipment in the digital signal train to deal with packets that represent music than those representing a sine wave? Did you say you have extensive background

 

[Victor Martell]

Looks like @bwb joined today... and covers all the audiophile beliefs/arguments, specially "more resolving" - which is used to support what are essentially fallible personal opinions and "mid-fi" which is used to justify biases re: price. I say we won't hear from @bwb again...

v

 

[Thomas savage]

I will not be dragged into a pointless debate because as I pointed out at the beginning of my post, most of you made up your minds long before any of this was posted.. this is not a lay assumption as I do have extensive background , this is one one of the most unscientific reviews I've ever seen. The reviewer had pre-determined what the outcome would be and yes, it is a ridiculous argument that these test signals are the same as a music signal.

"You see the top left graph? It shows voltage on vertical axis and time in horizontal. Clearly the voltage is changing. It also has phase."

It is red herring to say a single fixed frequency sine wave is "changing." You should be embarrassed to even say that. We're not talking about the sound of DC here so yes, of course, by definition a sine wave amplitude varies. You know that isn't what I meant.

BTW, where did you pull the square wave test from, they aren't mentioned in the initial "review."

In any case, look at the real time spectrum of a music signal compared to a fixed frequency and tell me with a straight face they place the same demands on the device under test. See how the various frequencies in music constantly come and go and the dB level constantly changes. Very different than the spectrums of the signals used. I stand by my assertion that looking at only the jitter from a single device while ignoring all of the other parameters that contribute to how something sounds is not a scientific review.

"But mainly because what we are talking about here is nothing more complicated than resistance to interference or noise." A resounding NO.. Mainly we are interested if it affects the sound.

You and others have latched onto some of the claims made in the marketing material and set out to disprove them. This is the crux of the matter.. I am interested in only one thing.. does it or does it not affect the end result... the sound. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what the jitter measurements are. Don't you all get it? It ultimately doesn't matter how it measures.. it doesn't matter why it does what it does.. very interesting to talk about, but doesn't matter .. this is (or should be) a forum about how things sound, not how they measure. And please don't any of you regurgitate that switches don't have a sound, data is data, switches can't so don't affect anything, blah , blah, blah. Plug it in and listen.. real simple.. if you haven't actually listened to your system with it installed you are guessing. Guesses are not scientific.

and yes, a $990 all in one streamer is not the proper device to use when looking for subtle differences in sound

SO ask yourself ... is it possible the reviewer set out to prove a point, not to discover whatever he might find? Is it possible the testing done was not sufficient to reveal all that could be revealed? Is it possible that the all in one streamer is not capable of revealing some of the subtleties that other equipment is? And maybe most importantly, is it possible that this device affects the outcome in ways we don't understand and can't explain ?? Of course it is all possible and deserves consideration, but since most of you have made up your mind without ever having tried it, you have no other recourse than to dismiss it all out of hand. Your argument boils down to this. None of the questions I asked matter because we know in advance what the outcome will be.

I'll leave you with the observation that some of those who just responded are not here to learn or discuss or to even consider the opinion of someone who disagrees with you, you are only here to engage in self congratulating yourselves on how clever you are bashing things you and the rest of the herd enjoying piling on about. which is the problem with most of these forums... for some reason people like to argue, not discuss ... think about it

so I'll leave you be, I've said all I have to say, take it or leave it


now begin the bashing !!!!

I don't see you wanting to discuss anything, you made that clear as you have also made it clear by telling us all what we mustn't say.

Your post is just a empty statement, just about all those stones you throw at us are pure projections.

I don't know what your background is but this is just a load of self edifying nonsense.

That's not bashing , you wrote it what else can anyone make if it ?

Btw , no one's claimed this review or any others here ' make science ' . They are product reviews.

 

[Jinjuku]

I haven't read all of the responses but would like to weigh in on the methodology and conclusions of the reviewer.

First of all, my point or position is not that the switch does or doesn't do what Uptone claims. My point is that the tests performed are incapable of determining anything meaningful about how this device affects the sound produced. I am not here to argue that a switch can or can’t affect the sound from your speakers. Since many if not most of you have already made up your mind that would be pointless. My point is there are 3 reasons the review is flawed.

1. Reviewer bias
2. inadequate tests
3. using a mid-fi DAC for sound comparison

1, The reviewer went into this with the idea it could not work as advertised. The introduction to the review states why he believe it it is impossible for the device to do what is claimed. Any time a scientist is conducting an experiment he/she must be very careful about how the tests are conducted as well as what tests will be conducted in order to eliminate any bias. From the tone of the review it seems obvious he is pleased to be able to say it has no effect. This is not a “scientific” experiment to determine an outcome. It is a test designed to prove what the tester believes to be true.

2. The electrical signal carrying the music is extremely complex. It contains a multitude of frequencies simultaneously. Those frequencies are constantly changing and their amplitudes are constantly changing. This signal is subjected to among others; harmonic, amplitude, phase, frequency, timing (jitter) and intermodulation distortion. Compare that to the tests conducted where a signal frequency at a fixed amplitude is injected into a device and a single parameter of the output is measured. Base on this single jitter measurement ignoring all other possible distortions, the conclusion is that the device has no effect. Hardly an exhaustive analysis.

3. A mid-fi device. Someone will undoubtedly respond that this point can be dismissed because it is based on the tired argument that if you can’t hear it your equipment just isn’t capable of revealing the differences. But at some point, you must agree that better equipment is more resolving or we would all be listening to boom boxes. So the reviewer used a $990 device that is an all in one power supply, streamer, wifi receiver, Roon endpoint, 24/384K PCM and DSD DAC, headphone amplifier, and preamplifier. While it is amazing it can do all of this for such little money, it is incontrovertible that some compromises had to be made in order to bring a device with that many functions to market at that price point. While I have no problem believing that he couldn’t hear any differences , the idea that this device is capable of revealing differences that say a $100K DCS Vivaldi stack could reveal is unreasonable.

So again, I’m not posting to argue that the thing works. I’m just saying that the tests conducted are so fundamentally flawed that no meaningful conclusions can be derived from them.

1: Ethernet switches are data devices. Depending on protocol they send data at the fastest wire rate possible without any timing. It's ASYNCH. We need no jitter analysis of Ethernet either. Ethernet is buffered. As a matter of fact my 10GBe PCI-E 8 Gen2 NIC's have 256MB of Samsung DRAM on them. Also on my main playback system I can buffer up to 1GB. I concatenated Rachmoninovs 3rd Symphony in Audacity to a single file of ~400MB FLAC. In JRiver I started play back and quicker than I could unplug the OM3 MultiMode fiber from the back of my computer the entire album was cached and played for it's entirety without interruption.

I have a question: If there was jitter during that short duration of transfer where was it stored. How would that same jitter on your web session to your bank affect the amount of $$ in your accounts?

2: "A mid-fi device. Someone will undoubtedly respond that this point can be dismissed because it is based on the tired argument that if you can’t hear it your equipment just isn’t capable of revealing the differences. But at some point, you must agree that better equipment is more resolving or we would all be listening to boom boxes. "

The DAC Amir used is SOTA. So let's turn this on it's head: I've repeatedly offered $4000 to someones $1000 (loser to pay travel expenses) that I would come out and in their own setup demonstrate that once I debiased them (they couldn't know what was in use) that all differences would go away. To date, over the past several years for some mysterious reason I can't give a slam dunk $4000 away. If you're game PM me for details.

3: The reason that I and others already have a preconceived notion is that we did indeed pre and conceive this notion at an earlier point in time.
Ethernet is based on a base 25MHz clock that is clock multiplied from there. You can't hear 25MHz let alone multiples of it.

 

[Jinjuku]

Remember folks that about two months ago UpTone dropped $14,000 on some test gear and we still haven't seen any measurements of the changes their product induces on the analog output of a DAC.

 

[bwb]

sorry, I thought this forum was about sound as in "audio science" not just science. I see few are willing to actually listen so I am in the wrong place. Measurements have their place. Measurements can explain why some devices sound different than others. But they can't explain everything as some of you seem to believe.

I'm not leaving with my tail between my legs as has been implied, I'm leaving because I seem to have fallen into a group that believes everything can be explained with measurements, that all DACS sound the same, that if I can't explain it then it doesn't exist, and even though I in no way believe that spending more will always get you more, there is a point below which you can't do any better, and I can't abide the idea that $990 gets you the best performance you can possibly get i.e. the device is state of the art.

these are the kind of senseless arguments that tell me it is time to go

These arguments are only repeated because they have not been debunked. If you want to stop hearing people tell you these things, provide some contradictory evidence.

= if you can't prove that it does exist then that is proof that it doesn't exist ..... sorry, it doesn't work that way.

"You can't hear 25MHz let alone multiples of it."

I have no idea what that is supposed to prove

I will leave you to your science such as it is, have fun

 

[LTig]

I will leave you to your science such as it is, have fun

Pity. You could have learned a lot here, for example why you (in fact everybody) can hear differences where none exist. Or even better which means really do improve the sound of your system.

 

[BDWoody]

I can't abide the idea that $990 gets you the best performance you can possibly get i.e. the device is state of the art.

Certainly not...that would go against everything the industry apostles teach. How could they convince you to keep coming back for the next great thing? Ignorance is the word of the day...they hope to keep it that way.

Course...they won't do proper DBT's either...so...
You pays your money and you drinks your Kool Aid with an expensive dose of snake oil and voila...it sounds better. No crime there. Also no science.

 

[Wes]

I'm sure he will post again - just with another name/IP

 

[Jinjuku]

sorry, I thought this forum was about sound as in "audio science" not just science. I see few are willing to actually listen so I am in the wrong place. Measurements have their place. Measurements can explain why some devices sound different than others. But they can't explain everything as some of you seem to believe.

I'm:

1. Willing to listen
2. Do it on YOUR setup
3. PAY you $4000
4. You can see everything in site except the switches

I'll do you one better: Lets say you have some standard lengths of 3-4 meter Ethernet cables. It's what I see in typical home setups. I'll use Tripplite cables that are 4 times that length with a $30 TP link SG108E switch.

Here's a video I created showing how this can work with modern hardware and lays out the test bed.

Let me know what your setup is like. You can use any source material you like.

 

[Jinjuku]

I'm not leaving with my tail between my legs as has been implied, I'm leaving because I seem to have fallen into a group that believes everything can be explained with measurements,

Oh no. You have most of us all wrong. I believe this phenomenon can be explained with ZERO instruments. Just using YOUR ears.

 

[Victor Martell]

sorry, I thought this forum was about sound as in "audio science" not just science. I see few are willing to actually listen so I am in the wrong place. Measurements have their place. Measurements can explain why some devices sound different than others. But they can't explain everything as some of you seem to believe.

I'm not leaving with my tail between my legs as has been implied, I'm leaving because I seem to have fallen into a group that believes everything can be explained with measurements, that all DACS sound the same, that if I can't explain it then it doesn't exist, and even though I in no way believe that spending more will always get you more, there is a point below which you can't do any better, and I can't abide the idea that $990 gets you the best performance you can possibly get i.e. the device is state of the art.

these are the kind of senseless arguments that tell me it is time to go

These arguments are only repeated because they have not been debunked. If you want to stop hearing people tell you these things, provide some contradictory evidence.

= if you can't prove that it does exist then that is proof that it doesn't exist ..... sorry, it doesn't work that way.

"You can't hear 25MHz let alone multiples of it."

I have no idea what that is supposed to prove

I will leave you to your science such as it is, have fun

I wish I knew what is you handle over at Audiophile Style, so we could continue the discussion, if it is true you are leaving... but I assume you will continue lurking, so here it is

1.- We don't believe, we prove.
2.- Everything in your second paragraph is actually easily explained away by illustrating several known cognitive biases and/or logical fallacies. There is no lower boundary for diminishing returns, is your biases and prejudices that won't accept it.
3.- It's simple: you cannot hear above the human threshold. Audiophiles hypothesize that you experience them somehow. As usual, not proven.

I hope you stay - a lot more fun to discuss it - and hopefully, we can save you a lot of money.

v

 

[Jinjuku]

"You can't hear 25MHz let alone multiples of it."

I have no idea what that is supposed to prove

It's simply a factual statement. The clock crystal on Ethernet is 25MHz. You can't hear it.

 

[hellboundlex]

sorry, I thought this forum was about sound as in "audio science" not just science. I see few are willing to actually listen so I am in the wrong place. Measurements have their place. Measurements can explain why some devices sound different than others. But they can't explain everything as some of you seem to believe.

I'm not leaving with my tail between my legs as has been implied, I'm leaving because I seem to have fallen into a group that believes everything can be explained with measurements, that all DACS sound the same, that if I can't explain it then it doesn't exist, and even though I in no way believe that spending more will always get you more, there is a point below which you can't do any better, and I can't abide the idea that $990 gets you the best performance you can possibly get i.e. the device is state of the art.

these are the kind of senseless arguments that tell me it is time to go

These arguments are only repeated because they have not been debunked. If you want to stop hearing people tell you these things, provide some contradictory evidence.

= if you can't prove that it does exist then that is proof that it doesn't exist ..... sorry, it doesn't work that way.

"You can't hear 25MHz let alone multiples of it."

I have no idea what that is supposed to prove

I will leave you to your science such as it is, have fun

Let me get this straight. You created an account to come and defend THIS product? And you defend it with ad hominems and claims that seem to indicate a correlation between price and performance. You offer nothing, but to say that everyone else has made up his or her mind. What the fuck?

If you want to fight, that's fine. Fighting is fun, and can educate. Yesterday I all but called someone an idiot, but learned a great deal from his response and changed my thinking. Fighting is fine. Throwing a bomb and saying you don't want to fight, however, is cowardly shit.

Now, I can come up with exactly zero reasons for an audio only switch in 2020. Using a Cisco catalyst was important for audio, especially VOIP, 20 freaking years ago. Today, who cares? Bandwidth and latency aren't issues.

Don't be an asshole. Fight for what you believe. Tell me why, even in theorey, the makers of this product shouldn't be bankrupted in civil court for fraud.

Edit: completely off topic and irrelevant, but notice my defense of argument and debate. There is a good feminist argument against what I said.

 

[TomB]

This review convinced me to not bother with using a switch, if my only reason would be to improve the sound coming from my speakers. After reading this review this idea seemed very implausible.

 

[hellboundlex]

This review convinced me to not bother with using a switch, if my only reason would be to improve the sound coming from my speakers. After reading this review this idea seemed very implausible.

I am a retired network engineer. I have one 8 port POE switch in my house for the wireless infrastructure. My file server connects to it because it doesn't have wifi, and I just connected the old Apple TV to it because it was dropping wifi connections. Everything else is wireless today. I used to have a Dell 48 port gigabyte managed switch. I gave it away.