UpTone Audio EtherREGEN Switch Review

[BDWoody]

Because I also took it as an opportunity to just spend some time with my wife and give her a little bit of insight into why I spend so much time reading online forums about audio equipment and headphones.

Could have been an opportunity to show her why testing done without proper controls is inherently flawed, and why so many audiophools end up wasting money in pursuit of better sound...

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

Because I also took it as an opportunity to just spend some time with my wife and give her a little bit of insight into why I spend so much time reading online forums about audio equipment and headphones.

Whenever I try that, my wife shakes her head and calls me a “sad bastard”

 

[March Audio]

That's worse than my RME ADI-2 PRO fs.

Yep. To be fair the dscope will have some advantages in terms of input voltage and dedicated software but its just not up to testing current crop of DAcs and amps.

 

[Roasty]

Could have been an opportunity to show her why testing done without proper controls is inherently flawed, and why so many audiophools end up wasting money in pursuit of better sound...

Sure man I get where youre coming from. The fact that my wife even bothered to spend a half hour or so doing this with me is something I can celebrate.

Sometimes I feel audiophoolery is similar to religion.. Belief is a strong thing.

 

[BDWoody]

The fact that my wife even bothered to spend a half hour or so doing this with me is something I can celebrate.

I hear that.

Sometimes I feel audiophoolery is similar to religion.. Belief is a strong thing.

It is indeed...requires belief more than proof. I think that is a primary benefit of this site, in that we are all encouraged to challenge 'common knowledge' in the audio industry. Whether we all end up putting together a scientifically valid test for ourselves (or our wives!), it makes us think...not just accept.

I actually applaud you doing this 'test,' but I simply wonder why if you are going to do this to actually learn something, (as opposed to spending quality time with the Mrs...that's the stuff that matters after all and not being snarky), why you wouldn't go that extra bit and make it a bit tighter.

Many on here would bet substantial sums of money that with controls, those results would not be quite so...clear.

Either way, it's a shame to see good people be swindled and conned...because that's all this is.

 

[Veri]

Either way, it's a shame to see good people be swindled and conned...because that's all this is.

Agreed. In case you're out of the loop @Roasty. The guy behind the EtherRegen, @Superdad has actually bought measurement instrumentation but fails to deliver any measurement whatsoever that proves the EtherRegen can improve. anything. He probably says he doesn't want to waste time to humble us, but on the other hand it seems pretty clear he can't for the life of him prove the ability of his device whatsoever.

 

[mansr]

I looked at dScope a while back and considered they just werent good enough

View attachment 63538

That's no better than my $500 Tascam. Unfortunately, it seems like ADCs get expensive very quickly around -110 dB.

 

[mansr]

As you see, I got more right than the fellow's wife with 5 in a row correct but it was still lucky guess.

To have a chance of having the results be valid, there should be 10 trials with getting more than 8 right. Even 5 right out of 5 is not enough. I strive for essentially zero chance of guessing by the way in my double blind tests.

An isolated report of a 10/10 result is no good either. If people keep doing such tests, sooner or later someone will get lucky. To make matters worse, people are unlikely to report a result of 7/10 or worse, so we have no idea how common good scores are. When the supposed mechanism is as implausible as it is here, it takes a lot more than a few 10/10 ABX results to be convincing.

 

[HerbertWest]

The claim is not that packages or data is altered, not even the jitter itself.

The claim as to why the ER differs from a normal switch is the common mode noise is lower and jitter is lower.
Their theory is that lower jitter and nicer signal 'quality' would lead to less 'noise' being injected in the connected audio equipment (where analog is re-created).
Noise/leakage currents are said to be harmful to certain (not all) equipment and can make it via groundpaths/PCB of DA converters into the audiopath.

Of course no switch can alter the payload of a frame, unless by corrupting it (but it would never reach the destination as the DAC NIC would discard it). My point was indeed about which components would generate jitter. For "common mode noise", waiting for somebody to explain me how it can affect an embedded system like a DAC, whose OS will process bits (1s and 0s) from the ethernet bitstream within TCP, before sending them to the dac chip.
Wanna avoid grounding issues? Fiber is your friend.
I appreciate amirm@'s review of this device. will keep following this amusing thread

 

[solderdude]

It is quite easy to have common mode currents coming from for instance a PC to make it into the audio path.
The need for USB isolators (in all shapes and forms) is testimony for that.
All it takes is a poor layout or ground (plane) management in a DAC or other connected device, the outside world and an audio path (active speakers, amplifiers)

The thing is that when such is the case the sound quality is not changed, instead you could hear all kinds of weird noises/hums etc ranging from just barely audible to pretty audible.

The reported 'sound quality' improvements (you know, tighter bass, more analog, smoother highs, better details, better stereo imaging ... the always reported stuff) cannot be caused by this though and that happens to be what is reported.

For PC's and DACs common mode current (groundloop issues) are not even that rare. Never heard this from network stuff though but could be present. In such a case perhaps (when other counter measures fail) it could potentially be helpful.
The reported improvements are almost certainly due to ... well lets not go there...

 

[Thomas savage]

Could have been an opportunity to show her why testing done without proper controls is inherently flawed, and why so many audiophools end up wasting money in pursuit of better sound...

A last desperate attempt to understand the guy she's living with, now the gulf has become a unbridgeable abyss and she's packing her bags

 

[BDWoody]

A last desperate attempt to understand the guy she's living with, now the gulf has become a unbridgeable abyss and she's packing her bags

Don't get me wrong...I'm all for blind(folded) time with one's SO. I suppose testing Ethernet switches is one way to spend that valuable time...

 

[HerbertWest]

It is quite easy to have common mode currents coming from for instance a PC to make it into the audio path.
The need for USB isolators (in all shapes and forms) is testimony for that.
All it takes is a poor layout or ground (plane) management in a DAC or other connected device, the outside world and an audio path (active speakers, amplifiers)

Good point. USB and Ethernet "coax" cables (e.g. high speed direct-attach-copper "DAC"-cables, definitely outside home use cases) have a ground pin IIRC.
TX Ethernet does not, and if both NICs are functional there should be no grounding loop issue. Only use case I am aware of re: switches with galvanic isolation is on medical or industrial application, to avoid electrocuting somebody if there is an accident and high voltage enters the cable (lightning, whatever). Hospitals, surgery rooms, explosive atmospheres, power substations. you get the idea.
Malfunctioning or poorly designed equipment on the endpoints would cause all sort of troubles, but that is an invariant.

 

[Wes]

The claim is not that packages or data is altered, not even the jitter itself.

The claim as to why the ER differs from a normal switch is the common mode noise is lower and jitter is lower.
Their theory is that lower jitter and nicer signal 'quality' would lead to less 'noise' being injected in the connected audio equipment (where analog is re-created).
Noise/leakage currents are said to be harmful to certain (not all) equipment and can make it via groundpaths/PCB of DA converters into the audiopath.

That combined with the idea that (ultra)sonic 'garbage' is said to influence the sound quality is the actual claim.
In the end the result would be a cleaner analog signal.

Now.... that last part is very easy to verify and measure.
So far I have not seen any evidence from the manufacturer. Only Amir looked at the analog path and did not find anything.
Granted, one should also perform EMC alike measurements or have source equipment that is known to have very poor performance in this regard.

I would have thought the manufacturer would have done this, or had it done in one of the many EMC labs, and show the world the improved results.
The fact that there is none of this is telling. Only 'anecdotals' from buyers and 'reviewers' have to serve as evidence.

Hey- they are working on those measurements!

Just a few more years!!

 

[amirm]

Remember folks that about two months ago UpTone dropped $14,000 on some test gear and we still haven't seen any measurements of the changes their product induces on the analog output of a DAC.

These guys are so confused. This is what he bought:

The actual device model is 53100A. Here are its specs:

As I highlighted, the *minimum* measurement frequency is 1 MHz or 50 times higher than 20 kHz audible band!

This is a device for measuring jitter in high frequency clock oscillators. It has no ability to measure the jitter from a DAC analog output. You know, the sound we hear, and measurements I post.

For $15,000 he could have bought an Audio Precision APx525 (model below mine) to at least get started on measuring the sound that hits people's ears. Instead, he is wasting money measuring jitter on high frequency clocks that are outside of a DAC.

So no measurements of sound will be coming from them at this rate. On more marketing technomeasurements unrelated to sound we hear.

 

[Thomas savage]

Hey- they are working on those measurements!

Just a few more years!!

Waiting for science to catch up!

 

[amirm]

In the spec above, best case floor of the measurement for that phase analyzer is -142 dB. Here is what I showed:

My floor in that measurement is whopping -180 dB or 40 dB better than that analyzer. Yet, still no difference.

The reason for superiority of my analyzer is that it is designed for "low bandwidth" of audio. The ADC does not need to run at 200 MHz as that device does. With lower bandwidth comes lower noise floor and better accuracy. Right device for the right application. Their choice for an analyzer? Exactly the opposite.

 

[Thomas savage]

In the spec above, best case floor of the measurement for that phase analyzer is -142 dB. Here is what I showed:

My floor in that measurement is whopping -180 dB or 40 dB better than that analyzer. Yet, still no difference.

The reason for superiority of my analyzer is that it is designed for "low bandwidth" of audio. The ADC does not need to run at 200 MHz as that device does. With lower bandwidth comes lower noise floor and better accuracy. Right device for the right application. Their choice for an analyzer? Exactly the opposite.

It keeps the bullshit wagon rolling , think of it as part of the marketing expenditure.

That's all it is and they know this lol

 

[JustJones]

Another "audiophile " ethernet switch comes to market purifying those nasties in your audio

https://englishelectric.uk/

 

[amirm]

Another "audiophile " ethernet switch comes to market purifying those nasties in your audio

https://englishelectric.uk/

I predict more and more of these coming to market as it is so easy to lift a generic switch platform, do a couple of tweaks and charge a ton of money for it. This one costs £450.