Doctors and lawyers may be well educated, but there are huge differences between their fields and physics/engineering. Whereas the physics relevant to consumer electronics is well understood and the devices engineered to perform a desired function, the field of medicine is largely empirical. Human physiology is only partially understood, and drugs often work without anyone knowing precisely why. With that mindset applied to audio electronics, it is easy to see how the tweak culture might arise. Lawyers are even further removed from the ways of engineering. In their world, anything can be true if supported by a compelling story and perhaps a few witnesses. Whatever rules do exist are merely contracts that can be altered on a whim. There is no Court of Appeals for the Laws of Physics, and I think that scares them.
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UpTone Audio EtherREGEN Switch Review
- Thread starter amirm
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How sure about this are you? I think we all tell ourselves we have a thought process to protect ourselves against being taken in, but if you were followed around all day by a huge team of experts and scientists what behaviours and decisions of the 1000s we make every day have we really thought about, and could rationally defend? So much of what people think of as knowledge is really repeated from someone else, who themselves were just repeating it, it's usually hard to find the end of this chain, the person who came up with the original definition, but when you get there it's often not well thought through, or not really applicable to general advice.
When it's things that don't cost anything, say extra steps in a recipe that allegedly enhance flavour, but in reality do nothing it's easy to just accept it. When it comes to buying an expensive gadget we think about it, but the things that only cost a little time, or an extra couple of pence at haven't got time to really investigate, unless it becomes one of our geeky obsessions and we spot a disconnect.
These short cut decision making leads us astray, then pride and shame kicks in. I'm not sure I'm making a lot of sense, probably need more time to explain properly.
Additionally, I imagine any one of us can find any number of experts in one (narrow) area that assume their expertise must extend to all fields. I went to college, I must be smart. I just dealt with a cable tech; I understand the spectral display much more than he did, and helped him to understand why I said "break in line" after a glance, but in terms of actual hands-on service and repair he's the expert. I don't pretend to know the details of audio amplifiers at the transistor level but can get by, and rarely deal with Maxwell's equations but have a decent understanding of shielding techniques and noise/crosstalk isolation. But just as I am not really competent to discuss details of audio circuits or EM theory, an audio designer probably has much less understanding of S-parameters and the rigors of GHz circuits than I, and my EM prof deferred to me for the actual circuit design. As for digital, it has been years since I had to deal with RTL code...
Very. I don't blindly accept things. Call it cynicism if you like
I am also very aware of areas I don't have deep knowledge of, so if anything I am probably even more cautious and less willing to take supplied information as difinitive in those areas. I would generally research around a subject to find out more.I think one difference is an attitude that without a basis to draw a conclusion, ie having adequate understanding of a subject, why would you?
As an example, dare I mention climate change? Its not disputable that temperatures are rising. The data clearly shows they are. However what is more debatable is how much of this is caused by human activity. The subject is too vast for me to devote time to research to be confident about a conclusion. So my answer is to weigh up the consequences and risks of particular actions. Do nothing and we could be in deep doo. Use renewable energy resources we might minimise the negative impact without any other obvious negatives.
So, on this particular subject we have people saying it does work but without basis. They don't understand the technicalities and they refuse to accept the fact that subjective experience can very easily be flawed. They won't even accept the simple to understand demonstration of pulling the ethernet cable out making no change. So it's dogma, it's faith.
I'm not sure you can compare this to the myriad of trivial decisions we make in a day. Whilst I am sure there are some that think the cost of this unit is trivial, I would expect most of us would want to put just a little thought into the subject before parting with the cash.
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If that would be the level of science nowadays, we would still be driving horse and carriage.
I got you fam, I'll be your second thumb.
I think in this particular instance we have a whole array of genuinely knowledgeable people and empirical evidence telling the audiophiles to stop being so bloody stupid
Except we'd be using coconuts in place of actual horses. Just as well, too, since we wouldn't have any wheels for the carriage anyway.
Great story of when I called Pulse - one of the companies that make Ethernet transformers - about some technical info for a 9 port (8 phy) switch I designed (the 9th port was MII/RMII for tying two together).
It was a four banger 10/100 transformer- you can see it here in my torture video:
BTW the shake rig is made out of a car subwoofer (mylar cone), a popcorn bowl and a polyethylene cutting board... drive with a 600 watt amp. 50-2kHz sweep...
Anyway, I call - and back when they'd let you actually talk with an engineer, I asked him my questions and he answered them. Then he states:
"You know, each one is hand wound... "
Now here's the deal - ever look at an ethernet transformer and what's inside? Here's photo of some from my parts bin:
That's a penny for comparison. Note the tiny little ferrites and silly small wire...
So he goes on : ".. to get a machine that do two wire, we can do; machine for four wire, not yet..." talking about the winding...
So I asked how they can get these so cheap - "China..." he states
So just think of this - how many devices have ethernet? From the dinkiest netbook to large Cisco enterprise zillion port switches.
These all use ethernet transformers...
All hand wound by women in tents; tiny little beads and super thin wire - maybe 42ga.
I say women, I'm sure that'd be true 'cause men don't have the patience... Just imagine that... Zillions of these things...
In fact, take a look at this - the Apollo guys called it the "little old lady method" - this is how you programmed rope memory back in the day:
And BTW - women weren't only "weaving" the actual programs - the head honcho was also a woman - just an amazing software person:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Hamilton_(software_engineer)
Here standing next to the code that the "LOL's" would weave. One thing about rope and magcore - it's pretty much impervious to SEU - Single Event Upset from things like gamma rays...
Sometimes the old ways are the good ways - well, maybe for resilience in high rad environs.
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Eirikur
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... unless you live in the Netherlands.
Our political overlords declared wood-pellets as a viable renewable energy resource, and are now subsidizing the culling of American woodlands to ferry them in the dirtiest ships across the ocean, and burn them in a reworked power station (previously coal). On paper this is a zero-emission activity...
Even with the evidence of scores of scientist that this is extremely bad for our environment, they will not recant - as any good religion wouldn't.
That's probably why we'd better not discuss these topics here, bad for the blood pressure (counting to ten now, I'm stuck at three).
UpTone has been ultra successful with all their products. The posted numbers are quite staggering I must say and @Superdad has done a spectacular job at the e-commerce game.
JS-2 - 240 units in 2017 @ $925 = $222,000
UltraCap LPS 1.2 - 1650 units @ $435 = $717,750
USB REGEN - 3000 units @ $175 = $525,000
EtherREGEN - 750 units @ $640 ea = $480,000
Total of $1,944,750
JS-2 - 240 units in 2017 @ $925 = $222,000
UltraCap LPS 1.2 - 1650 units @ $435 = $717,750
USB REGEN - 3000 units @ $175 = $525,000
EtherREGEN - 750 units @ $640 ea = $480,000
Total of $1,944,750
Darkweb
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I think the real driver behind a product like this is that audiophiles like to feel warm and cozy about everything in their rack or credenza being "purpose built for audio" and the network switch was the final frontier in that market. I was crazy enough to replace the generic smps on my network switch with a $50 one, but I think that's the limit for me.
I also once tried the Uptone Isoregen USB and that thing ran boiling hot too. It made no difference in my setup and was sold the next day.
I also once tried the Uptone Isoregen USB and that thing ran boiling hot too. It made no difference in my setup and was sold the next day.
Tks
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I don't know much about Ethernet protocols, but going in we expected this (I was just hoping it wouldn't degrade anything, but that would just be laughable as you would specifically need to make the effort in circumventing basic Ethernet protocols)
I just want to know one thing that makes ABSOLUTELY no sense to me..
Can someone please kindly and simply explain to me just why this thing is so hot? What on earth is it even doing to produce such heat output? Was the architecture made to perhaps also be a contributory factor in convincing people that it's doing something?
Seems like a decent handwarmer for your desk if you're typing away on a cold day and your heat is busted..
I just want to know one thing that makes ABSOLUTELY no sense to me..
Can someone please kindly and simply explain to me just why this thing is so hot? What on earth is it even doing to produce such heat output? Was the architecture made to perhaps also be a contributory factor in convincing people that it's doing something?
Seems like a decent handwarmer for your desk if you're typing away on a cold day and your heat is busted..
That's all due to the linear voltage regulators. Most of the ICs probably run on 3.3 V. The included power supply provides 7.5 V, a difference of 4.2 V. This means that for every watt consumed by the useful components, the regulators dissipate another 1.3 W. Enclosed in a small space, that's going to generate some heat.
Tks
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I was wondering more along the lines of "why?" in the sense that, why would you even do it like that. And also "why?" as in - why would you not drill some holes at the very least? Or is this one of those "it's like a tube, the warmer it gets the better" nonsense attempting to be hinted at but not openly stated? You know like the sort of approach to marketing where it lets the consumers imagination do the work?
Darkweb
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Time to play devil's advocate for a moment and risk blowback from the MRA crowd here:
What's the difference between what Matrix Audio and Uptone Audio are really doing?
By many people's point of view here, the $3,000 Matrix DAC with the sub-human noise floor should be indistinguishable from the $100 one that still has a noise floor well below audibility. Is the Matrix DAC "snake oil" since it provides the same function as the $100 Topping DAC?
Uptone Audio has built a network switch to spec with what they feel are superior quality parts to an off the shelf switch, and measurements show it to function exactly the same as the cheapo. If the low noise floor measurements Amir gushes over on his lab equipment don't amount to a hill of beans in actual listening, why is one considered "snake oil" and the other the talk of the town around here?
What's the difference between what Matrix Audio and Uptone Audio are really doing?
By many people's point of view here, the $3,000 Matrix DAC with the sub-human noise floor should be indistinguishable from the $100 one that still has a noise floor well below audibility. Is the Matrix DAC "snake oil" since it provides the same function as the $100 Topping DAC?
Uptone Audio has built a network switch to spec with what they feel are superior quality parts to an off the shelf switch, and measurements show it to function exactly the same as the cheapo. If the low noise floor measurements Amir gushes over on his lab equipment don't amount to a hill of beans in actual listening, why is one considered "snake oil" and the other the talk of the town around here?
Thanks for the inspiration, @amirm - I think I might start a new company making devices that don't do anything, but look impressive have impressive-sounding names - and are attractive to compulsive audiophools. Since I am an English-speaking expat living in a Spanish-speaking country, and struggling to learn Español, I did some research, and would consider these phrases for branding & a company name:
Grieta de Audio (audio crack) rolls off the tongue nicely and implies an addiction - and sounds like "Great Audio" to English-only speakers.
Héroe Audio (heroin or hero audio) looks a bit better, but unfortunately, only Google translate shows "héroe" as the masculine noun for heroin, and the word "héroe" is normally translated as "hero." The double entendre might be too uncommon to work well for most Spanish-speakers. The majority of translation sites show only "heroina" - as both masculine and feminine for heroin - and that would be too obvious for a brand name.
/snark
Naahhhh .... that's not going to happen. Their "beef" is with UpTone
But there's no superior engineering in the uptone product, it's in fact worse engineering as you can achieve the same performance for a lot less BOM.
The DAC on the other hand has verifiable performance advantages , you can argue they are academic but academic or not they are real.
Price , well value is in the eye of the beholder.
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