two different amps sound the same?

[JeffS7444]

Ask you a question, if a $500 device performs as good as a $5000 one, why should the company sell for $500? If all performs the same, why would any company even bother to make equipment of different series, range, prices? Why not just make 1 and be done with it?

Now, if you are the buyer, why would you want to spend more if all are the same?

The $5000 product may appeal more strongly to even a technically-literate buyer's emotions, and to other senses such as sight and touch. And if you can convince the customer that the pricier product is potentially a lifetime purchase, they may decide that it would be foolish to buy anything less! I'm not immune: I look at the Accuphase C-3900 product info and I want one, never mind that I scarcely have need of an analog preamplifier, let alone one selling for 35K USD. But perhaps I could justify the C-2150...

When you open up an equipment, you can commonly find different components (esp. brand) between their low cost and high end models. If all components are the same, why not just use the cheapest and maximise your margins?

The manufacturer may sincerely believe in their worth too, or at least see the value in putting on a good show, with connectors plated with precious metals, boutique capacitors, even copper-plated housings.

 

[izeek]

thanks all. it has been informative.
but is it ok for me not to like the adcom based on subjective results?
maybe for the reason @charleski said.
i think i can be pleased with my audiosources.

 

[billyjoebob]

Yeah, but nobody has claimed amps "can't" sound different.

Post #2

 

[Willem]

Measuring in-room response of amplifiers is a problematic methodology because the very largest part of the imperfections that you observe will be from the speakers and their interaction with the room. However, this does not mean that measurement under realistic loads is impossible: just measure the amplifier's electrical output under a real load. In any case, this is not a new science because we know that for flat frequency response the amplifier has to have a low output impedance. On the speaker side it also helps if the speaker does not present a difficult load.
As for the big differences measured in Archimago's test, what they show is that the Pass/First Watt amplifier is just a terrible amplifier. They are not an argument for the view that many amplifiers have a sonic signature. At most, they are an argument to avoid audiophile nonsense. Fortunately there are many perfectly mainstream and affordable amplifiers that will not show such behaviour, and can be counted as straight wires with gain. Good examples would be the Yamaha AS501/701/801 series.

 

[ta240]

You can see from both the amplifier and speaker measurements provided whether the amp will be immune to difficult loads and whether or not a speaker is a difficult load. What more is required?

Is the difference in the chart that is shown because of a difficult load or is it the design of the amplifier? Does a difficult load only cut the low and high frequencies? Why not test the amps into speakers that are an easy load and others that are a difficult load to prove or disprove it?

The theory here is that all amps sound the same. The chart above shows that they don't. The charts shown on this site show that they do. It is a classic case of picking the science that backs ones point of view.

Why is it amazing ? He's making standard, repeatable measurements and a non-inductive resistive load not impacted by frequency will better represent measurements across different topologies.

The difference is that we get both standardized measurements and Amir's personal impression and we can ignore both or neither.
Go into any audio showroom and you're not going to be handed measurement data, just their opinion based on what merchandise their boss is asking them to push that month.

But he is leaving out a really easy measurement to do and still calling it science. It is selective science at best.

Stereophile does the same thing by having a subjective review and measurements yet, as has been shown over and over, this site never chooses to ignore the personal opinion part. They attack it. Wouldn't Reichert's personal impression on there have to be defended the same way so many come to the defense of Amir for that to be true?


Also, why aren't square waves used in any tests here? Those show different outputs from the amps and that is, I believe, into a resistive load.

 

[ta240]

thanks all. it has been informative.
but is it ok for me not to like the adcom based on subjective results?
maybe for the reason @charleski said.
i think i can be pleased with my audiosources.

Listen to whatever makes you the happiest. Nobody here has measured your amps so we can't know how they are performing. Don't let stressing over specs replace stressing over imaginary things.

We don't know the impact of your room on the sound. Maybe an amp that isn't working to spec would sound better because it wouldn't have as strong of frequencies in a range that your room affects very negatively.

Someone else may love the Adcom or after a thorough service and tune-up it may perform the same as the other amps. It is old; the electrolytic capacitors are probably drying out in it and other values may have drifted.

 

[krabapple]

You're definitely in the wrong place to be talking about sound difference between amps, i.e. similarly specified amplifiers matched for volume of output. In particular, it's the wrong place to talk about subjective differences since there is a crew here who distain and ridicule those who express subjective impressions.

But then one must grant that the rigorous testing, e.g. "blind" ABX comparisons, proven time & again that statistically people cannot identify which amp is which.

If one grants that, why entertain 'subjective impressions' of their sound? For sh*ts and giggles?

 

[Willem]

The theory here is that all amps sound the same. The chart above shows that they don't. The charts shown on this site show that they do. It is a classic case of picking the science that backs ones point of view.

The theory is that properly designed amplifiers wil not have a sonic signature. Craps ones like this Pass/First Watt will. A low output impedance is crucial in this respect.

 

[krabapple]

Post #2

Post #2 doesn't claim amps can't sound different

That is not the issue. Of course conditions can be contrived that make two amp outputs sound different. Such conditions have been discussed on this very thread. The reasons are known, the output difference will be measurable. In the most trivial case, two of the same make and model can be made to sound different, due to what they are connected to...or even to simply not being properly level matched. Or, of course, to one being broken and the other not. And last, in the most pernicious case, because it's intentional, two different models where one amp is simply badly designed and the other isn't...or both are badly designed. Don't be obtuse.

The issue is whether amps necessarily sound different, particularly for the vague reasons cited by amp enthusiasts. The answer is, when they are compared properly: no, they should not.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Post #2

I guess you didn’t read post #2 very closely

 

[Gorgonzola]

If one grants that, why entertain 'subjective impressions' of their sound? For sh*ts and giggles?

Anything wrong with that? However misguided they may be, there is a large constituency of enthusiasts who rely in their impressions.

As for music itself, that is something highly reliant on subjective impression.

 

[krabapple]

Anything wrong with that? However misguided they may be, there is a large constituency of enthusiasts who rely in their impressions.

Lots of people believe in astrology. Should a forum called Space Science Review entertain their impressions of the effects of the Zodiac on human fortune?

As for music itself, that is something highly reliant on subjective impression.

And it's not the topic here.

 

[billyjoebob]

I guess you didn’t read post #2 very closely

(An amp that is doing it's job properly won't sound like anything. It will cleanly and accurately embiggen the volume of your music.)

(that's not to say there isn't necessarily some reason to buy a more expensive amp, but it probably isn't about the sound.)

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

(An amp that is doing it's job properly won't sound like anything. It will cleanly and accurately embiggen the volume of your music.)

(that's not to say there isn't necessarily some reason to buy a more expensive amp, but it probably isn't about the sound.)

lol...So that first sentence you quoted suggests that there is a possibility of an amp sounding different. One that isn't doing it's job properly.

The second sentence says it "probably" isn't about the sound...as opposed to it "can't" be about the sound. The post also mentions the possibility that a tube amp might have characteristics causing it to sound different - those would be distortions or inaccuracies, but they could certainly account for amps sounding different.

 

[billyjoebob]

lol...So that first sentence you quoted suggests that there is a possibility of an amp sounding different. One that isn't doing it's job properly.

The second sentence says it "probably" isn't about the sound...as opposed to it "can't" be about the sound. The post also mentions the possibility that a tube amp might have characteristics causing it to sound different - those would be distortions or inaccuracies, but they could certainly account for amps sounding different.

No hate.....
Since the dedicated amp market is so small, I have not run into a poorly made amp. ( me personally).
So it appeared to be saying (to me) all they do is amplify a signal period.
My bad.

 

[Gorgonzola]

Lots of people believe in astrology. Should a forum called Space Science Review entertain their impressions of the effects of the Zodiac on human fortune?
...it's not the topic here.

What part of science is about ignoring reality?

 

[levimax]

The 5 dB variation shown previously is a very extreme example to the point that it is of of very limited value when discussing the sound of amps. See below measurements I made when ABX testing a Dynaco ST 70 and a Neurochrome Mod 86 as well as the Mod 86 with a 0.9 Ohm resistor in series with the speaker. Everything was set up carefully and level matched. The Dynaco has ~0.7 Ohm output impedance and Neurochrome extremely low output impedance. There are very small FR differences and adding the 0.9 Ohm resistor made the Mod 86 almost exactly match the FR of the Dynaco. I was unable to ABX the 2 amps and neither were several other people. For the vast majority of amps output impedance FR differences are not an issue.

 

[krabapple]

What part of science is about ignoring reality?

Science isn't about granting equal consideration to every claim about 'reality'. Applying experimental controls, for example, isn't 'ignoring reality'. It's filtering out noise. Noise is 'real', bad data are 'real', but they are not useful.

A Space Science Review forum that rejects posts by people reporting their astrological musings isn't ignoring reality. It's ignoring stuff that's not space science.

My question to you was:
Should a forum called Space Science Review entertain their impressions of the effects of the Zodiac on human fortune?

Feel free to answer it next time.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

It's not like people are kept from posting their subjective...errrr...investigations here anyway. They just get challenged on them. At least we don't ghetto-ize them to a separate area designated as theirs and restrict them from saying anything everywhere else like Headfi does to us objectivist types.

 

[Doodski]

At least we don't ghetto-ize them to a separate area designated as theirs

That's a great analogy that fits so well.