two different amps sound the same?

[izeek]

i know this has been beat to death but i just need a lil more clarification, please.
if all amps working right sound the same, why are there so many different brands/types? rhetorically, i understand capitalism.
and why would i pay $5000 for one if the $500 one will sound the same?
i own 3 audiosource amps and a recently purchased adcom.
ive heard the gfa 5500 sounds as close to tube sound as you can get due to the mosfets in system.
its nice but i kept feeling something was missing. not as dynamic. too smooth? iono.
now, i did not dbx, but i feel like there IS a difference between them.
i felt the adcom lacked some ass end compared to the audiosources. the midbass was more lively but thats about it.
i felt like there was some slam missing on drum hits and low bass runs.
my expectation bias was that i'd be wowed since supposedly its a "better"amp than the audiosources.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

The job of an amplifier is to amplify - as opposed to applying a "sound" of it's own to the equation. An amp that is doing it's job properly won't sound like anything. It will cleanly and accurately embiggen the volume of your music. It doesn't require thousands and thousands of dollars to achieve that task. "Tube sound", if it exists, is likely to be a distortion. If an amp has a "tone" of it's own, then it's not doing it's job very well.

(that's not to say there isn't necessarily some reason to buy a more expensive amp, but it probably isn't about the sound. Could be engineering, features, style...stuff like that there.)

 

[DVDdoug]

ive heard the gfa 5500 sounds as close to tube sound as you can get due to the mosfets in system.

If it has a "tube sound" then it has some kind of distortion or non-linearity and it won't sound the same as a good amp.

felt the adcom lacked some ass end compared to the audiosources. the midbass was more lively but thats about it.

Almost all modern amps have very-flat frequency response (and low distortion and low noise). If they drop-off they'll drop-off at the extremes, not in the "mid" bass.

If there is an audible difference (in a proper-scientific, blind, level-matched listening test) it would most-likely be noise. Or, if you over-drive the amp you can get distortion. And different amps can distort differently, but hopefully you're not driving the amp into clipping.

 

[izeek]

If it has a "tube sound" then it has some kind of distortion or non-linearity and it won't sound the same as a good amp.


Almost all modern amps have very-flat frequency response (and low distortion and low noise). If they drop-off they'll drop-off at the extremes, not in the "mid" bass.

If there is an audible difference (in a proper-scientific, blind, level-matched listening test) it would most-likely be noise. Or, if you over-drive the amp you can get distortion. And different amps can distort differently, but hopefully you're not driving the amp into clipping.

could be, could be.
what does clipping sound like?
there are no indicators on its face.
ive heard what i think is distortion but turned out to be the production values.

 

[izeek]

The job of an amplifier is to amplify - as opposed to applying a "sound" of it's own to the equation. An amp that is doing it's job properly won't sound like anything. It will cleanly and accurately embiggen the volume of your music. It doesn't require thousands and thousands of dollars to achieve that task. "Tube sound", if it exists, is likely to be a distortion. If an amp has a "tone" of it's own, then it's not doing it's job very well.

(that's not to say there isn't necessarily some reason to buy a more expensive amp, but it probably isn't about the sound. Could be engineering, features, style...stuff like that there.)

The job of an amplifier is to amplify - as opposed to applying a "sound" of it's own to the equation. An amp that is doing it's job properly won't sound like anything. It will cleanly and accurately embiggen the volume of your music. It doesn't require thousands and thousands of dollars to achieve that task. "Tube sound", if it exists, is likely to be a distortion. If an amp has a "tone" of it's own, then it's not doing it's job very well.

(that's not to say there isn't necessarily some reason to buy a more expensive amp, but it probably isn't about the sound. Could be engineering, features, style...stuff like that there.)

so basically expensive amps are made and bought because we can spend whatever amount we want.
not necessarily because that $5000 is actually better?

 

[Doodski]

not necessarily because that $5000 is actually better?

The more expensive amps tend to have better linearity of the power output as in doubling of the power output for each halving of the load impedance. So they drive low impedance loads much better and that makes for better sound if the speakers can benefit from the power linearity.

 

[ta240]

Depending on the age of the amps the sound can vary because components are drifting out of spec.

Looking at square waves on stereophiles tests they often look a lot different, so the amps are doing something different and I would think they would likely have different sounds based on that.

Wouldn't these amps sound different? According to: https://sound-au.com/articles/squarewave.htm the rounded corners and peaks indicate roll off or increases in high and low frequencies.

How could they not sound different if they don't reproduce the signal the same way?

 

[Matias]

Output impedance changes frequency response. Below an extreme example.

SUMMER MUSINGS: No... Not all amplifiers sound the same (but many do! ;-).

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

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[JeffS7444]

so basically expensive amps are made and bought because we can spend whatever amount we want.
not necessarily because that $5000 is actually better?

Somewhere, the ghost of Nikita Khrushchev is having a good laugh, but yes, that's the essential truth of the luxury-goods sector.

 

[SKBubba]

The job of an amplifier is to amplify - as opposed to applying a "sound" of it's own to the equation. An amp that is doing it's job properly won't sound like anything. It will cleanly and accurately embiggen the volume of your music. It doesn't require thousands and thousands of dollars to achieve that task. "Tube sound", if it exists, is likely to be a distortion. If an amp has a "tone" of it's own, then it's not doing it's job very well.

(that's not to say there isn't necessarily some reason to buy a more expensive amp, but it probably isn't about the sound. Could be engineering, features, style...stuff like that there.)

Marked as solution.

 

[ta240]

so basically expensive amps are made and bought because we can spend whatever amount we want.
not necessarily because that $5000 is actually better?

Somewhere between $500 and $5000, you can get better ability to handle difficult loads (increased power with better cooling, better power supply), increased quality control with better reliability, less variance to component values for more consistent performance from one unit to another and just a higher quality feel. At some price point you sometimes get something that looks a bit like art and/or a name that may impress.

And, just as with any product you can get junk at pretty much any price too.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

...And, just as with any product you can get junk at pretty much any price too.

That's really the problem right? I mean you'd like to think that even if you aren't likely to get better sound quality, if you spend some bucks on something you're at least assured to get better build quality, durability, etc but it just really isn't the case. In fact, sometimes it seems like the opposite is true.

 

[escksu]

Many factors come in play, esp. speakers. However, integrated amps will sound slightly different due to differences in design and components used. Even same models will vary a little bit due to tolerances in components.

Of course, some are designed on purpose to give a certain characteristic to the sound. However all differences are pretty small.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Many factors come in play, esp. speakers. However, integrated amps will sound slightly different due to differences in design and components used. Even same models will vary a little bit due to tolerances in components.

Which wouldn't be audible at all unless there were some pretty shoddy manufacturing tolerances in place...

 

[charleski]

I can't find any proper reviews of the GFA 5500, but a bit of googling shows a few reports of severe roll-off in the bass, this one is an eye-opener. This sort of thing will certainly be audible.

 

[Gorgonzola]

You're definitely in the wrong place to be talking about sound difference between amps, i.e. similarly specified amplifiers matched for volume of output. In particular, it's the wrong place to talk about subjective differences since there is a crew here who distain and ridicule those who express subjective impressions.

But then one must grant that the rigorous testing, e.g. "blind" ABX comparisons, proven time & again that statistically people cannot identify which amp is which.

As for price differences, different power and other objective capacities and one thing; others are quality of construction. cosmetics, and the reputation of the maker.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Yeah, an amp that "featured" severe roll-off in the bass would be problematic to say the least.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

You're definitely in the wrong place to be talking about sound difference between amps, i.e. similarly specified amplifiers matched for volume of output. In particular, it's the wrong place to talk about subjective differences since there is a crew here who distain and ridicule those who express subjective impressions.

But then one must grant that the rigorous testing, e.g. "blind" ABX comparisons, proven time & again that statistically people cannot identify which amp is which.

There's a "crew" here? I mean it's sort of a foundational principle of the site...

 

[Gorgonzola]

There's a "crew" here? I mean it's sort of a foundational principle of the site...

... Granted.

 

[escksu]

Which wouldn't be audible at all unless there were some pretty shoddy manufacturing tolerances in place...

Given loud enough volume, i would say it will be audible. Tolerances are pretty loose when it comes to such consumer electronics and its not shoddy, its normal. Capacitors can differ as much as 10%, inductor coils 5%. Resistors 1-3% etc...then how they varies with temp is another factor. These are mass production components and not precision.

Of course you can have matched components or extremely tight tolerances. However, it gets really costly. An example, vishay produces extremely good metal foil resistors. They also have very good temp coefficients... But the cost is extremely high (15-20 for a single piece).

Btw, it is this difference in transistors that require output resistors in amps. Different transistors have different out voltage/current. If you install them in parallels the one with higher voltage will cause current to flow into the one with lower voltage. It will kill the transistor in the long run. Thats why you have output resistors to prevent this.