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Tube Amp with the "Good Kind of Distortion"

MattHooper

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Here is my 2 pence:
I am gonna go on a limb and declare that "Tube sound" is the sound of a tube amplifier with deficiencies.
I don't believe anyone can tell a good tube amp from a good solid state equivalent amp in any blind test.
Those tube amps that do have a sound, are doing something wrong



Yup. That's essentially what I say about tube amps too. Agreed.

As for the rest, I'm not technically proficient in amp design to determine what technical claims are true or not. Best I can do is sit back and take in varying opinions of people who know more than I do.

Plus, I always hold on to the possibility I'm imagining sonic differences (in almost everything I do with my system).
 

JRS

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There's no need to guess: Pete Millett has already designed such an amp:
http://www.pmillett.com/jonokuchi.htm
My guess is that it'll provide exactly the sort of sound people want when they say they want "tube sound".
2.5W x 2 at 2.5% THD--all for about 200. This is 40.00 per watt and distorted ones at that. Or about 20x the unit cost watt for a solid Class D.
 

Chazz6

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I have Mike Sanders' Quicksilver Integrated amplifier. Here are the specs he publishes (no distortion figures):

Power Output 20 watts into any load from 2 to 8 ohms
1 Watt Bandwidth 1.5 Hz to 60 KHz
Power Bandwidth 15 Hz to 30 KHz
Peak Power 40 watts per channel
Damping Factor 10 with 8 ohm load
Input Impedance 50 Kohms
Tube Complement Eight 6BQ5 , Two 12DW7

What do you think about the tube complement?

I really like what it gives Focal Aria 906 speakers at moderate volume. I don't hear it imparting a characteristic sound to the material. I hear both definition and the musicality of the piece being played.
 

Purité Audio

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A valve amp with inaudible distortion is a solid state amp.
Keith
 

witwald

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Possible, but I'm not even sure "tube distortion" is actually audible, as it has good chances of being masked; do you have measurements that correspond to your type of equipment?
Some tube amplifiers can potentially add 1% harmonic distortion, which is potentially going to be audible if you're listening to pure tones on some music. As you've mentioned, auditory masking effects will probably jump into play to make even quite high levels of euphonic distortion less discernable by the listener.

Of course, many tube amplifiers have quite low values of damping factor. This can result in large frequency response swings at the outputs of the amplifier when driving typical passive loudspeaker systems. These swings can be up to ±1.0dB, although probably ±0.5dB is more the norm. Such large frequency response changes are adding large amounts of distortion to the reproduced signal, noting that a 1.0dB change is approximately 10% distortion of the signal. If you equalised pink noise to match the amplifier's frequency response, and then compared it to unequalised pink noise, then you are highly likely to be able to hear the changes. Here is an example of the possible frequency response variations associated with amplifiers of different damping factors.
1633335698868.png

Looking at where those peaks and dips are occurring, it isn't difficult to take a guess at the euphonic colorations that are being added. Working through the frequency range, from left to right, let us see what we can hear. Such things as "the bass has so much more depth and punch", "the boxiness on the vocals is removed", "the extra clarity on female vocals makes them sound so real", "the smoothness of strings is enhanced to bring out their liquid nature", and "the edginess of horns and cymbals has been tamed". Of course, change over to an amplifier with a damping factor of 200 or more and all those superlatives just go and vanish into thin air, as we now have much more accurate reproduction.

Nevertheless, euphonic or not, these are simple colorations that anyone could take advantage of by simply purchasing a multi-band parametric equaliser, or even a simple third-octave equaliser. The latter were common enough in the past. That way you can choose much of the flavour of whatever tube amplifier you want at any point in time. And, one major benefit is that you can switch off these special sonic effects when you no longer desire them to be present.
 
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DanielT

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A valve amp with inaudible distortion is a solid state amp.
Keith
Well okay this might be seen as "cheating". It is probably possible to construct a tube amplifier with inaudible distortion.

A tube PREamplifier.

What good would it be to use tubes then you might wonder. Maybe because it's autumn out now. Rugged and rainy. Darker for every day. Tube, they shine fine.:D
 

DanielT

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Has there been a tube product reviewed yet that has been implemented correctly to have only the "good kind of distortion".

It is clear that there are tube amplifiers with good distortion and we should be happy about that. Maybe not quite what you had in mind, but still ..

:cool:


Edit:
Though I now see in the video. His amp can not be turned up to 11 on the volume. Huge mistake.:oops:
 
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Ken Tajalli

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. These swings can be up to ±1.0dB, although probably ±0.5dB is more the norm. Such large frequency response changes are adding large amounts of distortion to the reproduced signal, noting that a 1.0dB change is approximately 10% distortion of the signal. If you equalised pink noise to match the amplifier's frequency response, and then compared it to unequalised pink noise, then you are highly likely to be able to hear the changes. Here is an example of the possible frequency response variations associated with amplifiers of different damping factors.
±0.5dB is not large! and that is not distortion, just voltage drop due to high output impedance, hardly audible.
I don't think you could call mild frequency response issue a distortion per se.
Such an effect does make the amplifier to have a "sound" as @SIY already has mentioned, I partly blame low feedback for this, proper feedback (among other things) lowers output impedance.
 

xaviescacs

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Balanced or push-pull circuits / outputs whether tube or solid state will eliminate the even order components and leave the odd order components. That's not an ideal situation, again if you have to have distortion.
Is this way some tube amps have no feedback and they advertise it as a good thing?
 

witwald

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±0.5dB is not large! and that is not distortion, just voltage drop due to high output impedance, hardly audible.
I don't think you could call mild frequency response issue a distortion per se.
So, an audible change in the output, versus an unmodified output signal, is not distortion? A frequency response issue is not distortion? How can distortion not be distortion? It's either there or it isn't. A ±0.5dB change will be audible, especially when it occurs in multiple frequency bands. Try it with pink noise, which is nice and continuous, and mimics the energy spectrum found in music. It will be quite evident.
 

DanielT

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So, an audible change in the output, versus an unmodified output signal, is not distortion? A frequency response issue is not distortion? How can distortion not be distortion? It's either there or it isn't. A ±0.5dB change will be audible, especially when it occurs in multiple frequency bands. Try it with pink noise, which is nice and continuous, and mimics the energy spectrum found in music. It will be quite evident.
It depends on how you define distortion.

I think. Anyone with more knowledge is welcome to clarify how it is with it.:)

Edit:
Now I remember. Read this on another forum a while ago regarding speaker elements:

In principle, there is no connection between frequency response and distortion. You can easily construct an element with a smooth frequency response but high distortion and vice versa. An example of the first type may be a fairly typical dynamic (normal) tweeter element, while an example of the second type may be an electrostatic element.

The frequency response becomes uneven because the element has a greater power effect or has higher mobility (mobility) at certain frequencies. At certain frequencies, the cone / diaphragm simply moves a little more or less than it should, but if at any given frequency you double the voltage, the sound pressure also doubles.

The distortion occurs when this movement is no longer linear, i.e. when a doubling of the voltage no longer corresponds to a doubling of the sound pressure. The force on the cone / membrane or mobility here depends on the amplitude instead of the frequency.

If you want, you can see irregularities in the frequency response as "irregularities in frequency links", while distortion can be seen as synonymous with "irregularities in amplitude links

The pedagogical part was mostly for those readers of the thread who have not really grasped the difference between linear and nonlinear deviations. Sometimes I think it can be a bit too super-technical reasoning.

Completely independent is of course not frequency response, scattering and distortion in practice, but as I wrote above, in principle it can be said that they are.


 
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Ken Tajalli

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So, an audible change in the output, versus an unmodified output signal, is not distortion? A frequency response issue is not distortion? How can distortion not be distortion? It's either there or it isn't. A ±0.5dB change will be audible, especially when it occurs in multiple frequency bands. Try it with pink noise, which is nice and continuous, and mimics the energy spectrum found in music. It will be quite evident.
Well yeh, I suppose you could call it that if you must.
I call distortion, when it adds signal related artefacts to the original signal, that is why Noise and Distortion are calculated seperately for example.
BTW, the output impedance of a tube amp is usually not so rock steady, it goes up with frequency! so on a speaker with low impedance at treble frequencies, the effect would be very audible.
 
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MakeMineVinyl

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Is this way some tube amps have no feedback and they advertise it as a good thing?
Feedback and balanced / push-pull are two separate things.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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A valve amp with inaudible distortion is a solid state amp.
Keith
Nope, its just a valve amp with low distortion. Being absolutist is accomplishing nothing. ;)
 

MattHooper

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Nevertheless, euphonic or not, these are simple colorations that anyone could take advantage of by simply purchasing a multi-band parametric equaliser, or even a simple third-octave equaliser. The latter were common enough in the past. That way you can choose much of the flavour of whatever tube amplifier you want at any point in time. And, one major benefit is that you can switch off these special sonic effects when you no longer desire them to be present.

I tried that a few times.

As I've mentioned before, I had a Z-Systems RDP-1 parametric EQ for a long time and I used to have both Conrad Johnson (and other brands) tube amps (still have CJ), along with Bryston amps. I'm not bad with EQ - I use it all the time in my day job. But I was never able to really replicate the sound of my tube amps with the Bryston just using the EQ.

There could be multiple explanations for that, but at least, personally, as someone not unfamiliar with EQ it didn't turn out to be so easy.
 

egellings

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I enjoy building tube amplifiers and winding their transformers, but I don't go for the euphonic BS. I want accurate reproduction while enjoying the tube glow and the "made it muh self feeling" that goes with rolling your own amplifier. I've had good luck with circlotron designs modified to get rid of the burned off screen grid problem, which happens on loud peaks. No more. At full volume, I measure a bit less than 0.25% THD, which is plenty good (read: inaudible) for me. I'm aware that I can get a little hand full of a switchmode amplifier that will trounce them distortion & power-wise, but am not interested. Addicted to that glow., and I don't settle for flabby sound.
 
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