• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Tube Amp with the "Good Kind of Distortion"

antcollinet

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 4, 2021
Messages
7,748
Likes
13,083
Location
UK/Cheshire
I tried that a few times.

As I've mentioned before, I had a Z-Systems RDP-1 parametric EQ for a long time and I used to have both Conrad Johnson (and other brands) tube amps (still have CJ), along with Bryston amps. I'm not bad with EQ - I use it all the time in my day job. But I was never able to really replicate the sound of my tube amps with the Bryston just using the EQ.

There could be multiple explanations for that, but at least, personally, as someone not unfamiliar with EQ it didn't turn out to be so easy.
I'm guessing that's because EQ (even parametric) can only change the frequency response. It can't emulate the distortion caused by non linear operation of the tubes (or whatever the mechanism is by which tubes distort).

Have you tried any of the "tube simulator" AU or VST plugins available, such as those listed here?

 

egellings

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 6, 2020
Messages
4,079
Likes
3,321
The EQ may not fix a problem caused by excessively high amplifier output impedance, either.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pma

snaimpally

Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2021
Messages
68
Likes
73
Location
Austin, TX
At the risk of grossly oversimplifying this topic, my understanding is that tubes create even order harmonics, which tend to sound "warm" and "pleasing" to the ear while transistors tend to create odd order harmonics which tend to sound "harsh". However, this is an oversimplifcation as I have also heard that some transistor based designs, such as those that use MOSFETs sound "tube like" because they tend to produce more even order harmonics.

"Second-order or ‘even’ harmonics are even-numbered multiples of the fundamental frequencies and create a rich, pleasing sound. Third-order or ‘odd’ harmonics are odd-numbered multiples of the fundamental frequencies, which give the signal an edgier, more aggressive sound. Generally speaking, tube designs create higher levels of even-order harmonics, while tape and transistor-based designs create higher levels or odd-order harmonics. However, every circuit creates a different blend of both even and odd-order harmonics that give it a unique sound."

"With FETs and BJTs in simple circuits, second harmonic distortion is dominant"

"MOSFETs are solid-state devices that work on principals more similar to vacuum tubes than bipolar transistors."
 

egellings

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 6, 2020
Messages
4,079
Likes
3,321
It's possible for poorly designed tube amps to sound harsh (read: odd harmonic distortion), especially designs that skimp excessively on output tube quiescent current in a bid to improve efficiency.
 

SIY

Grand Contributor
Technical Expert
Joined
Apr 6, 2018
Messages
10,511
Likes
25,350
Location
Alfred, NY
At the risk of grossly oversimplifying this topic, my understanding is that tubes create even order harmonics,
Some time spent measuring tube amps will demonstrate that they have plenty of odd order distortion.
 

DanielT

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 10, 2020
Messages
4,830
Likes
4,768
Location
Sweden - Слава Україні
But to the advantage of the transistor. In a well-designed amplifier, the distortion is inaudible. Thus, it does not matter what order, even or uneven distortion it is.
At the risk of grossly oversimplifying this topic, my understanding is that tubes create even order harmonics, which tend to sound "warm" and "pleasing" to the ear while transistors tend to create odd order harmonics which tend to sound "harsh". However, this is an oversimplifcation as I have also heard that some transistor based designs, such as those that use MOSFETs sound "tube like" because they tend to produce more even order harmonics.

"Second-order or ‘even’ harmonics are even-numbered multiples of the fundamental frequencies and create a rich, pleasing sound. Third-order or ‘odd’ harmonics are odd-numbered multiples of the fundamental frequencies, which give the signal an edgier, more aggressive sound. Generally speaking, tube designs create higher levels of even-order harmonics, while tape and transistor-based designs create higher levels or odd-order harmonics. However, every circuit creates a different blend of both even and odd-order harmonics that give it a unique sound."

"With FETs and BJTs in simple circuits, second harmonic distortion is dominant"

"MOSFETs are solid-state devices that work on principals more similar to vacuum tubes than bipolar transistors."
But to the advantage of the transistor. In a well-designed transistor amplifier, the distortion is inaudible. Thus, it does not matter what order, even or odd distortion it is.

It is better not to hear any distortion than to hear "good" distortion.:)

Then there is the question of when the distortion becomes audible. A well-constructed tube amplifier with perhaps quite% high THD seen compared to a well-constructed transistor amplifier looks bad on paper. But then reality comes into the picture. The ears. Then speakers that literally scream distortion.

Speaking of well-constructed tube amplifiers and reality. Another part of it:
bu010878-16_9_copy_800x452.jpg
 
Last edited:

mhardy6647

Grand Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2019
Messages
11,407
Likes
24,762
Some time spent measuring tube amps will demonstrate that they have plenty of odd order distortion.
Single-ended, push-pull, or both?
(or have we had this conversation already?)
 

Purité Audio

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Barrowmaster
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
9,191
Likes
12,486
Location
London
Nope, its just a valve amp with low distortion. Being absolutist is accomplishing nothing. ;)
If a valve amp has inaudible levels of distortion then it will sound exactly like SS, provided both are capable of properly driving the loudspeakers in question.
People buy valves for an effect.
Keith
 

DanielT

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 10, 2020
Messages
4,830
Likes
4,768
Location
Sweden - Слава Україні
What is good distortion?
There is no good distortion. What is meant is the distortion exists and there are different types of distortion. Being certain types are said to be more pleasing to our ears. Different degrees in hell, so to speak.

Go for the amplifier with inaudible distortion (check SINAD, THD + N) plus enough gun powder (W) so the amplifier is not driven into clipping.What Keith, Purité Audio, me and others have been in to on this thread.:)

Then it's just a matter of concentrating on what really makes a difference: Speakers, room acoustics and (for those who are into it) mic messurement ,PEQ and set the house curve.:)

Edit:
Good distorsion exist in guitar tube amps, where you consciously push the amp into clipping to get that cool distorted guitar sound :cool: .. if it's your cup of tea
 
Last edited:

MakeMineVinyl

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 5, 2020
Messages
3,558
Likes
5,875
Location
Santa Fe, NM
If a valve amp has inaudible levels of distortion then it will sound exactly like SS, provided both are capable of properly driving the loudspeakers in question.
People buy valves for an effect.
Keith
How can it be an 'effect' if that effect is inaudible? Sounds like an oxymoron to me. I guess its like a solid state amp exploding in the forest when there's nobody to hear it. :oops:
 

BDWoody

Chief Cat Herder
Moderator
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
7,082
Likes
23,538
Location
Mid-Atlantic, USA. (Maryland)
How can it be an 'effect' if that effect is inaudible? Sounds like an oxymoron to me. I guess its like a solid state amp exploding in the forest when there's nobody to hear it. :oops:

Glowing tubes.
 

MakeMineVinyl

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 5, 2020
Messages
3,558
Likes
5,875
Location
Santa Fe, NM
Glowing tubes.
If an amplifier glows in the middle of the forest and there's nobody there to see it, did it actually glow?

Obviously it did, because it started a forest fire. :eek:
 

egellings

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 6, 2020
Messages
4,079
Likes
3,321
Tube amps can generate odd as well as even order distortion products, depending upon the circuit design and where in its characteristic the tube is operated.
 

witwald

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 23, 2019
Messages
480
Likes
505
Tube amps can generate odd as well as even order distortion products, depending upon the circuit design and where in its characteristic the tube is operated.
Below is one example of that kind of behaviour. Notice too how in this tube amplifier the 3rd harmonic is not far behind the 2nd harmonic in size. The plot is for the spectral response of a 1kHz sinewave, for the Balanced Audio Technology VK-56SE, low output tap, running at 1W into 8 ohms, which produces 0.4% THD+N. At 6 watts output power, this amplifier is producing about 1.0% THD+N using a 1kHz test signal.
519BAT56fig14.jpg

Source: Stereophile, https://www.stereophile.com/content/balanced-audio-technology-vk-56se-power-amplifier-measurements
 

DanielT

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 10, 2020
Messages
4,830
Likes
4,768
Location
Sweden - Слава Україні
Below is one example of that kind of behaviour. Notice too how in this tube amplifier the 3rd harmonic is not far behind the 2nd harmonic in size. The plot is for the spectral response of a 1kHz sinewave, for the Balanced Audio Technology VK-56SE, low output tap, running at 1W into 8 ohms, which produces 0.4% THD+N. At 6 watts output power, this amplifier is producing about 1.0% THD+N using a 1kHz test signal.
519BAT56fig14.jpg

Source: Stereophile, https://www.stereophile.com/content/balanced-audio-technology-vk-56se-power-amplifier-measurements
But it only costs $ 8000. Tube amplifiers can cost more than that.:)

If , I says IF , you now absolutely must have a tube amplifier then buy a classic. For the feeling. Amir is on the same track:

Amir:
"Dynaco ST 70
I love the simplicity of tube amps like this. There is just so little to them. If I were less busy, I would not mind playing with one to get it to optimal performance."


Another advantage of buying such a well known tube amp as the Dynaco ST 70 is that you can buy and sell it for about the same price. There is a fairly large demand for that model. If you do not like it, sell it. Or you think it's cozy with tube glow in the autumn darkness.:)

Edit:
Or even cheaper. Some vintage transistor amplifier from the 70's. Some of them are said to have that warm tube sound. Or the distortion as it may well be in that case.

This for example. Unfortunately, it does not have quite as high a distortion as a tube amplifier can normally have, if you are looking for the tube sound. However, the effect is sufficiently low to qualify.

Distortion 0.18% at 30 W.

 

Attachments

  • shot_2021-10-06_23-43-04.png
    shot_2021-10-06_23-43-04.png
    349.9 KB · Views: 61
  • shot_2021-10-07_17-21-55.png
    shot_2021-10-07_17-21-55.png
    1.4 MB · Views: 58
Last edited:

mhardy6647

Grand Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2019
Messages
11,407
Likes
24,762
But it only costs $ 8000. Tube amplifiers can cost more than that.:)

If , I says IF , you now absolutely must have a tube amplifier then buy a classic. For the feeling. Amir is on the same track:

Amir:
"Dynaco ST 70
I love the simplicity of tube amps like this. There is just so little to them. If I were less busy, I would not mind playing with one to get it to optimal performance."


Another advantage of buying such a well known tube amp as the Dynaco ST 70 is that you can buy and sell it for about the same price. There is a fairly large demand for that model. If you do not like it, sell it. Or you think it's cozy with tube glow in the autumn darkness.:)

Edit:
Or even cheaper. Some vintage transistor amplifier from the 70's. Some of them are said to have that warm tube sound. Or the distortion as it may well be in that case.

This for example. Unfortunately, it does not have quite as high a distortion as a tube amplifier can normally have, if you are looking for the tube sound. However, the effect is sufficiently low to qualify.

Distortion 0.18% at 30 W.

The early-ish ss amplifiers (and receivers) with single-ended (so to speak), DC power supplies and capacitor-coupled outputs have a whole slew (no pun intended... well, mostly...) of anomalies associated with their output quality (fidelity) that some folks a) like and b) find... ahem... tube like. :rolleyes:

004 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
This one actually has a quasi-complementary topology -- but it's cap-coupled and it's a photo I have handy.

 
Last edited:

DanielT

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 10, 2020
Messages
4,830
Likes
4,768
Location
Sweden - Слава Україні
The early-ish ss amplifiers (and receivers) with single-ended (so to speak), DC power supplies and capacitor-coupled outputs have a whole slew (no pun intended... well, mostly...) of anomalies associated with their output quality (fidelity) that some folks a) like and b) find... ahem... tube like. :rolleyes:

004 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
This one actually has a quasi-complementary topology -- but it's cap-coupled and it's a photo I have handy.

Sound is still subjective. There is so much that weighs into the experience. Maybe the tube glow outweighs the disadvantages of tube amplifiers for some. For others not so. That's good. People get to like what they want.:)

There is another aspect with tube amplifier. DIY. For those who like it.

For those who are curious about tube amplifiers then it's just a matter of trying one out.:)
 

mhardy6647

Grand Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2019
Messages
11,407
Likes
24,762
Sound is still subjective. There is so much that weighs into the experience. Maybe the tube glow outweighs the disadvantages of tube amplifiers for some. For others not so. That's good. People get to like what they want.:)

There is another aspect with tube amplifier. DIY. For those who like it.

For those who are curious about tube amplifiers then it's just a matter of trying one out.:)
As if I would disagree... ;)

DSC_4262 (2) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
 
Top Bottom